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Someone to indicate me a good subtitling software?
Thread poster: Véronique Fourneaux
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 10:03
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
On my spotting Feb 9, 2017

Faustine Roux wrote:

If I may, José, do you spot your subtitles yourself or do you always use your clients' templates ?


Faustine,

I have two major subtitling client categories:

A) Corporate video (sometimes through translation agencies) - these are companies where video production is completely outside their core and non-core business. IOW they know nothing about video production, all they have is "the video" they got from their WHQ (ranging from posted on YouTube to copy-protected DVDs for me to crack), absolutely nothing else, and they want that video subtitled, ready to play. No script, no unedited footage to overlay titles, charts & fades in/out of them. I am expected to cover the whole nine yards.

B) Subtitling studios - their business is subtitling into umpteen languages, so they provide me with pre-timed templates with the full transcript broken into subtitles in the source language. All they want is for me to translate the text in these segments, as concisely as possible.

Minor client categories are small video producers in two types:

C) They want the translation only, broken into proper-length subtitles, in plain text. They'll be timed by some sesquilingual staff member they may have on their payroll.

D) They want an SRT file, which they'll convert and burn, embed, or author into a DVD.

There is no "always" for me, as sometimes I get some pretty weird video file formats, so I had to become a master in post-production.


 
Faustine.Rou (X)
Faustine.Rou (X)
Local time: 13:03
English to French
professional software and time-spotting Feb 9, 2017

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

Faustine Roux wrote:

If I may, José, do you spot your subtitles yourself or do you always use your clients' templates ?


Faustine,

I have two major subtitling client categories:

A) Corporate video (sometimes through translation agencies) - these are companies where video production is completely outside their core and non-core business. IOW they know nothing about video production, all they have is "the video" they got from their WHQ (ranging from posted on YouTube to copy-protected DVDs for me to crack), absolutely nothing else, and they want that video subtitled, ready to play. No script, no unedited footage to overlay titles, charts & fades in/out of them. I am expected to cover the whole nine yards.

B) Subtitling studios - their business is subtitling into umpteen languages, so they provide me with pre-timed templates with the full transcript broken into subtitles in the source language. All they want is for me to translate the text in these segments, as concisely as possible.

Minor client categories are small video producers in two types:

C) They want the translation only, broken into proper-length subtitles, in plain text. They'll be timed by some sesquilingual staff member they may have on their payroll.

D) They want an SRT file, which they'll convert and burn, embed, or author into a DVD.

There is no "always" for me, as sometimes I get some pretty weird video file formats, so I had to become a master in post-production.



OK, I see.
I have looked at your subtitling work on your website and I noticed that the time-spotting was not very accurate, especially around shot changes. If you have spotted these subtitles yourself, I strongly recommend you have a look at why professional subtitling software are actually, objectively better than Subtitle Workshop or any freeware that doesn't handle frame by frame control.

I am only saying that because as soon as there is a post about subtitling, you start saying that professional software is just luxury with no real benefit and I think it's very misleading for people who actually want to work for post-production companies and/or subtitling agencies.

As for suggesting a good piece of subtitling software, EZTitles seems to be the best at the moment, although I haven't tried it yet. Wincaps and Spot are very good too and quite intuitive.


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 10:03
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
On time-spotting Feb 9, 2017

Faustine Roux wrote:

I have looked at your subtitling work on your website and I noticed that the time-spotting was not very accurate, especially around shot changes. If you have spotted these subtitles yourself, I strongly recommend you have a look at why professional subtitling software are actually, objectively better than Subtitle Workshop or any freeware that doesn't handle frame by frame control.

I am only saying that because as soon as there is a post about subtitling, you start saying that professional software is just luxury with no real benefit and I think it's very misleading for people who actually want to work for post-production companies and/or subtitling agencies.


I assume you are referring to the second group on this page.

Keep in mind that these are videos that I was allowed to publish, OR that were already made public on YouTube, not requiring any special ID, login, whatever.

It has 5 videos. #s 1, 4, and 5 are hosted on YouTube, so audio may slip, depending on your connection and their servers. Here they are okay.

For the record, subtitles on #1 were forcefully edited by the end-client (job done via an agency), in spite of my warning that at times they put too much text. On the others, I had to make a choice between anchoring the subs to the audio or scene changes in the video. I chose the former option, to improve flow for the spectator. In a more active video, I might have chosen otherwise.

Videos 2 and 3 are clips from longer videos (20~30 minutes each), hosted on my site. I see no problem there, however these were done about a decade ago, and my micro-accuracy has improved significantly, thanks more to faster hardware than by changing software.

Yet this should be an interesting theme for newcomers, because we are often in a quandary when the editor was not so careful, i.e. when speech continues into a fade-to-black, starts while the previous scene has just started to fade into the present one, etc. In such cases, I always advocate for the spectator. For instance, if the frame fades to black before the spectator has had enough time to read what is still being said, I am not shy of keeping my subs on a black screen while the speech goes on.

As I said, it's not a matter of software, but a large number of thoughtful decisions by whoever is at the helm. Some subtitlers blindly advocate for the subtitling-rule-makers. I keep in mind that these guys won't be the ones watching my subtitles. I keep advocating for my prospective spectator; if s/he will be happier and more comfortable with anything, I'll do it!


 
Faustine.Rou (X)
Faustine.Rou (X)
Local time: 13:03
English to French
... Feb 9, 2017

José, I'm not going to argue with you. You believe you are the best and constantly dismiss subtitling guidelines that don't fit with the way you want to work. Fine.

But a subtitle that disappears a couple of frames after a shot change, or appear 10 frames before a shot change will not improve readability. It is just poor time-spotting and you could improve that by using a piece of software that allows ***frame by frame control***.

And I'm not talking about fadings, but
... See more
José, I'm not going to argue with you. You believe you are the best and constantly dismiss subtitling guidelines that don't fit with the way you want to work. Fine.

But a subtitle that disappears a couple of frames after a shot change, or appear 10 frames before a shot change will not improve readability. It is just poor time-spotting and you could improve that by using a piece of software that allows ***frame by frame control***.

And I'm not talking about fadings, but clear cut shot changes.
And no matter what, you never EVER cross a scene change. No but, no if.
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José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 10:03
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
I'm definitely not the best, but... Feb 9, 2017

... I make my spectators comfy & happy.

As I came into subtitling after 17 years spent in translation for dubbing, I have my quirks, and make no secret about them: I follow the audio track! After all, subtitling is the translation from the audio, not tied to the video editor's possible slips. If the editor changed the shot, but kept the previous audio going, or of s/he started the next shot audio before the cut, I'll be following the audio - which is what I'll have translated - not
... See more
... I make my spectators comfy & happy.

As I came into subtitling after 17 years spent in translation for dubbing, I have my quirks, and make no secret about them: I follow the audio track! After all, subtitling is the translation from the audio, not tied to the video editor's possible slips. If the editor changed the shot, but kept the previous audio going, or of s/he started the next shot audio before the cut, I'll be following the audio - which is what I'll have translated - not the image. I know it's kinda ugly, but I'm in post production; no chance to fix poor video editing now.

The actual rules should have been followed at the editing stage. If the editor didn't, it's not up to me - subtitler - to follow them blindly now, as they won't fix that breach.

My tenet is that if something is being said and heard, the subtitles must make the corresponding translation "readable" on the screen at that very time. This comes from dubbing... if the actor is moving his lips onscreen, he must be saying something; if his mouth is shut tight, he can't be saying anything. Anything different will make the spectator feel "cheated", from either hearing/reading what was visibly not said, or being shut off from something that was actually said.

BTW I have frame-by-frame control, of course not in Subtitle Workshop, but certainly in Subtitle Edit and a few others. Furthermore, I can edit any time or setting - usually on SSA files - in plain text using the Windows Notepad. I can shift subtitles up and down when needed, with single-pixel accuracy, if I want to, (unless I reopen the file with SW, which will immediately reset all SSA parameters).

Faustine Roux wrote:

José, I'm not going to argue with you. You believe you are the best and constantly dismiss subtitling guidelines that don't fit with the way you want to work. Fine.

But a subtitle that disappears a couple of frames after a shot change, or appear 10 frames before a shot change will not improve readability. It is just poor time-spotting and you could improve that by using a piece of software that allows ***frame by frame control***.

And I'm not talking about fadings, but clear cut shot changes.
And no matter what, you never EVER cross a scene change. No but, no if.
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Faustine.Rou (X)
Faustine.Rou (X)
Local time: 13:03
English to French
dubbing vs subtitling Feb 9, 2017

My last comment :

Just like consecutive interpreting is different from simultaneous interpreting (I believe, I'm no interpreter), dubbing is different from subtitling. They follow different guidelines for different reasons.

If you chose to time your subtitles according to the audio and not even look at what's going on screen, that is ignoring shot changes etc., then you're doing transcription, not subtitling.

If you meant that you delivered the subtitle fil
... See more
My last comment :

Just like consecutive interpreting is different from simultaneous interpreting (I believe, I'm no interpreter), dubbing is different from subtitling. They follow different guidelines for different reasons.

If you chose to time your subtitles according to the audio and not even look at what's going on screen, that is ignoring shot changes etc., then you're doing transcription, not subtitling.

If you meant that you delivered the subtitle files and then the video was edited in a way that made your subtitles look "ugly" (I'd rather say "more difficult to read"), then fair enough, it's not your fault.
However, if you meant that they didn't edit their video according to the audio, and so you chose to time your translation according to the audio, totally ignoring the editing of the video, then I'm sorry, but you're not doing a good job. And no video will be edited according to the audio, you'll always hear a bit of speech before or after a shot/scene change.
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José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 10:03
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
Most definitely! Feb 9, 2017

Faustine Roux wrote:

My last comment :

Just like consecutive interpreting is different from simultaneous interpreting (I believe, I'm no interpreter), dubbing is different from subtitling. They follow different guidelines for different reasons.


That's why I stayed in translation for dubbing for 17 years, and turned down every subtitling request in this period.

Until one day came when a regular and friendly client told me, "I need YOU to translate these (28 technical videos, 30 min each) for subtitling. If you don't know how to do it, go learn!"

So I studied it, and discovered that in this meantime video had shifted from analog to digital, which I already knew. What I discovered was that digital video could be fully subtitled using a standard PC. There was no more the need for an editing suite, a char generator and a Genlock. In a few months, I was authoring quite complex interactive - subtitled - DVDs.

Faustine Roux wrote:
If you chose to time your subtitles according to the audio and not even look at what's going on screen, that is ignoring shot changes etc., then you're doing transcription, not subtitling.


I definitely watch the video carefully at all times. When there is a scene change AND the text is short, and doesn't overflow too much into the next scene, I cut it (= time out) as short as I can to ensure that it can be complete read by an average spectator. If it has to trespass into the next scene, can't be made any more concise, I'll break those sacred rules. At least my spectator will have the complete message.

The process looks overwhelming, but these are the decisions one has to make on the spur of the moment, like when driving a vehicle in heavy traffic.

Faustine Roux wrote:
If you meant that you delivered the subtitle files and then the video was edited in a way that made your subtitles look "ugly" (I'd rather say "more difficult to read"), then fair enough, it's not your fault.


Nope. Most of the videos I work on have been finished.

Faustine Roux wrote:
However, if you meant that they didn't edit their video according to the audio, and so you chose to time your translation according to the audio, totally ignoring the editing of the video, then I'm sorry, but you're not doing a good job. And no video will be edited according to the audio, you'll always hear a bit of speech before or after a shot/scene change.


NO video will be edited...?
There are too many careless editors around.
Shot 1 shows Mary at home talking to her mother on the phone.
It fades to Shot 2, where John is arguing with someone in a bar, no relation to the Mary-Mom dialogue.
Mary/Mom's voices end the last phrase while the screen has already fully faded into John's argument, when his audio finally comes in.
I edit video now and then, with Sony Vegas or AVS. It's just to easy to do that, cutting Mary's video too early, and then having the audio trespass into the entire fade.
In 16 mm film, the optical audio track was some 20+ frames ahead of the corresponding frame, because it was not feasible to place the audio "reader" at the lens. So in dry cuts, audio and video were not cut in sync, there was almost a one second difference between the cuts in terms of time.
So in dry cuts - even when it's digital video - sometimes the audio sloppily trespasses into the next scene without any reason whatsoever.
You have your rules, I have my advocacy for the spectators.
My spectators say they are happy. They don't know the rules, but they like what they see. hear, and read, so they tell me.

Many years ago, health inspectors here in Sao Paulo elected the #1 most hygiene-rules-compliant restaurant in town. Surprisingly, it was a relatively small and unsophisticated Chinese restaurant (though run by Brazilians) near where I lived. Chinese restaurants are known for not being the cleanest ones. So one day I went there. Indeed, it was clean, however all the food had the same taste: none! I am no expert, but I guess that part of the flavor in typical Chinese food might stem from not being so obsessive about hygiene. BTW, they didn't last long in business, two years tops, AFAICR.


 
Faustine.Rou (X)
Faustine.Rou (X)
Local time: 13:03
English to French
Final response, then G&T time Feb 9, 2017

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

NO video will be edited...?
There are too many careless editors around.
Shot 1 shows Mary at home talking to her mother on the phone.
It fades to Shot 2, where John is arguing with someone in a bar, no relation to the Mary-Mom dialogue...


What I meant is that most of the time, in films, series, documentaries, you will hear a little bit of speech before a shot change and/or a little bit of speech after the shot change. Usually for up to one second. Which does not mean you must carry your subtitle over the shot change, just so that you have text on screen when you can still hear the speech. Please, look up "flickering effect" and you will understand why having a shorter subtitle can be easier to read than a longer one that crosses a shot for 10 frames or so.
Please, please, look it up.

I didn't come up with these guidelines. People have done extensive research to come up with them. It's not random, it's not just for the fun of having more constraints.


I know you're going to reply with yet another anecdote, telling me when you started working as a subtitler and why you will never change your methods and why everything you do is so great. So I'm off now. But please, remember that : some of the subtitles you show on your website are not that good, technically speaking (I can't judge the translation as I don't speak Portuguese, but I'm sure it's good).


 
MarkRaishbrook
MarkRaishbrook
Portugal
Portuguese to English
Spot correction Jan 21, 2019

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Spot and a few other USD 4-digit-priced subtitling programs are not privately owned by any subtitling company, however they create some "rare" subtitle files formats , which incidentally are adopted by some (or most?) European broadcast companies.


Very late to the party, but I feel I should to respond to this. Spot doesn't create some "rare" file formats that are then adopted by European broadcast companies (I'd be very rich in that case, which unfortunately I am not). It *supports* these files (and I imagine you're thinking of EBU STL and PAC, for example) because they are/were the de facto subtitling format used by broadcast companies in Europe (and beyond) in the 1990s/2000s. Even today, in fact, many subtitling houses in Europe insist on work being supplied in these formats.


 
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Someone to indicate me a good subtitling software?







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