Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] >
¡Finally here! WWA rating for translators
Thread poster: Álvaro Espantaleón Moreno
Georgie Scott
Georgie Scott  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 19:54
French to English
+ ...
Middle ground Oct 18, 2017

Chris S wrote:

As a result, the world is about to end.

Or will it?


No, the world won't end but it's ok to voice concerns and try to clarify other perspectives that might not have been taken into account.

My worry is that I might get a 4 rating from agencies who find it tedious that I refuse to lower my rates after years working with them or to give discounts for volume, or agencies who employ inexperienced proofreaders or favour the opinion of non-native clients who think they know best when they don't (a client recently disagreed with my suggestion that GTFO is a bad name for a product sold in English-speaking countries, though that's not really the sort of mistake I'm talking about); or a 1 rating from a client that took 9 months to pay €5,000 and then called me a "sale pute" for contacting the company he sold my work to to warn them they were potentially also in breach of copyright; etc.

I've never used Upwork or any of those online bidding platforms but I've heard a lot of horror stories about poor rankings from unscrupulous clients for perfectly acceptable translations.

I'm sure this measure will be implemented, potentially it will be a bit of a pain in the backside but life will go on and I'll continue to use the site (unless it withers away like Translators Cafe) because I find the Blue Board useful, host one of my websites and email addresses here, am a "Certified Pro" - which means very little but at least shows that I'm not afraid of peer review, clients can see I registered on the site in 2009 and have had my university degree verified, as well as a number of positive WWA entries that support the experience cited on my CV.

Perhaps I'll get 5-star ratings across the board and clients will send me emails every day begging me to translate for them at €0.20 a word, but perhaps new translators will hesitate to request feedback and it will take longer for them to build their business and reputation, which would be a shame if lots of canny translators were getting a wealth of 5-star ratings from agencies that were happy to receive 10,000-word translations at €0.04 a word in under 24 hours.


Thao Tran
 
Angie Garbarino
Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:54
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
2 more postings Oct 18, 2017

Jenny Forbes wrote:


It's not true that WWA entries are made only if the translator requests them. I have several WWAs from clients but have NEVER requested such an entry - ...

They must have made their entries spontaneously.


Same here


Lincoln Hui wrote:

The Blue Board is not a rating tool, it's a risk-management one.


Exactly

No, the world won't end but it's ok to voice concerns and try to clarify other perspectives that might not have been taken into account.

My worry is that I might get a 4 rating from agencies who find it tedious that I refuse to lower my rates after years working with them or to give discounts for volume, or agencies who employ inexperienced proofreaders or favour the opinion of non-native clients who think they know best when they don't


And agreed

[Edited at 2017-10-18 10:01 GMT]


Thao Tran
 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 19:54
Member
English to Italian
Perhaps 'not a well-thought through idea', but it's already happening, here and elsewhere... Oct 18, 2017

Samuel Murray wrote:

Álvaro Espantaleón wrote:
If this initiative is implemented, agencies will build a WWA rating database for free. Then, when this database is strong and mature, it will only be offered to translation agencies that pay a fee.


No, that is not a well-thought through idea. A similar logic could have been applied to the Blue Board, but the Blue Board is still accessible to all.

And the reason why your idea would not work is the same as well: the number of translators who would be willing to pay money for a list of vetted agencies is too low for such a venture to be profitable, and the same will apply to agencies.


The BB 'is still accessible to all' only to a degree, since you have to be a paying member to have access to comments (and full history) and a "supermember" to have access to sub-ratings.

Also, lots of translators are in fact 'willing to pay money for a list of vetted agencies', such as PP. Considering agencies definitely have more money to invest than single freelancers, Alvaro's idea makes perfect sense. Besides, ProZ is planning this thing about rating translators 1-5 because it was asked by outsourcers, definitely not by translators... (this was spelled out quite clearly when discussing the "Pools" rating system).


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:54
Member (2004)
English to Italian
yes... Oct 18, 2017

Robert Rietvelt wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:

As for the negative comments here in this thread by the same old folks, for those who don't know them, let me say that there are certain people at ProZ.com who have threatened to leave over this or that dozens of times over the years, but somehow never do. People are not leaving ProZ.com in "droves"; in fact, ProZ.com has gone from 0 to 4500 Plus subscribers in less than a year, and the overall number of members is currently rising. It is our commitment and passion to continue to offer you, our members, more and more value for your membership.


What kind of comment is this from a "SITE FOUNDER"? These "same old folks", as you call them, are critical, and you can agree with them or not, but they are your clients who also keep this platform alive.

So, instead of insulting them, hear them out, they might have a point!

I am really amazed.




[Edited at 2017-10-17 22:06 GMT]


I'm one of them... I like to think that we don't leave because the founder listens to "us" and gets it right, eventually, even if we have to badger him a lot...


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 19:54
Member
English to Italian
Risk vs. quality vs. satisfaction + ability to assess quality and "reasonable" expectations Oct 18, 2017

Georgie Scott wrote:

That's the issue for me: who has the most power. In this industry, agencies have far, far more power than freelancers (power in numbers, financial power, perceived power of "legitimacy", power in volume). A quick look back over the history of the world shows that power is very frequently abused and used to manipulate and dominate those with less power. Hence the reactions from "the same old folk", whose opinions might just reflect the opinions of at least the same proportion of site users who "lurk" but don't post.

Proz has its own power. Over the last year, lots of translators have said to me - in response to me advocating Proz membership - "I don't like the site and don't think recent changes have added any real value but I don't know if I can afford not to have membership when my competitors do."

The Blue Board gives freelancers a little more power. Negative WWA ratings hand this power and more back to agencies. Hence the scepticism.

Perhaps it will be a good thing but having seen how Airbnb ratings work and the damage that one unjustified "average" rating can do, I have my doubts. There is a huge amount of content voicing the same concerns over 1-5 star ratings in other industries.

And the MAJOR difference between Blue Board and WWA ratings is that Blue Board ratings are used by service providers (freelancers) to manage risk and not by CLIENTS researching quality and experience, whereas WWA ratings ARE used by potential clients to research quality and experience. Of course, this could be an argument in favour of 1-5 ratings but it goes against the logic that just because you can have negative Blue Board ratings it should follow that negative freelancer ratings should be allowed.


Totally agree. Just wanted to add a further point to complement what you wrote, related to what I mentioned in the subject, and in light of what was previously written by Henry when introducing the "Pools" feature, which also comes with clients' ratings:

Henry Dotterer wrote:

We understand well the issue of imbalance (as you know well from eighteen years here with no possibility for negative feedback.) The expectation I am referring to is among potential partners, some of whom are not from the industry. The biggest freelancer websites in the world now have ratings, so that has painted people's understanding. As you can imagine, then, agreeing to open the door to ratings at ProZ.com on a permission basis -- that is, enabling those members who are ok with opening themselves up to feedback to do so -- makes it a lot easier to enter into partnerships.


As soon as I read that, I immediately thought how objective, balanced and qualified a rating from clients who are not even 'from the industry' could be...

Those words also make it clear that this "feature" is being introduced not because translators asked for it, but to meet the expectations of clients used to platforms such as Upwork and the like, and I personally find the very thought quite disturbing...

As for me, in the past I've had the chance to work (directly and indirectly) with clients 'not from the industry', so I can safely say some of them have unrealistic expectations, no (or little) idea of what translation involves and/or are simply unable to assess the quality of a translation, other than by asking a colleague "who speaks the language" (if you're "lucky") or "checking" it on Google Translate (yes, I'm serious). So, ratings from such clients could be nothing short of random, and thinking your name (for those who use their real names, that is...) and reputation could be irrevocably damaged because of that doesn't seem very appealing or fair, while "opting out" of such ratings would still ultimately damage your marketing efforts and your chances of being found/contacted by prospective clients.


Thao Tran
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:54
Member (2008)
Italian to English
I agree with Giovanni Oct 18, 2017

I agree with Giovanni Guarnieri's remarks about not insulting the most longstanding (and longsuffering) people who have been keeping Proz alive and making it successful.

Actually we should never insult anyone. But this episode gives us an intriguing insight.

[Edited at 2017-10-18 11:56 GMT]


Thao Tran
 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:54
Member (2004)
English to Italian
maybe... Oct 18, 2017

Henry Dotterer wrote:

We understand well the issue of imbalance (as you know well from eighteen years here with no possibility for negative feedback.) The expectation I am referring to is among potential partners, some of whom are not from the industry. The biggest freelancer websites in the world now have ratings, so that has painted people's understanding. As you can imagine, then, agreeing to open the door to ratings at ProZ.com on a permission basis -- that is, enabling those members who are ok with opening themselves up to feedback to do so -- makes it a lot easier to enter into partnerships.


Just because other freelance websites have now ratings, it doesn't automatically mean it's right or ethical to have them. I do appreciate the "permission" concept, though...

[Edited at 2017-10-18 12:09 GMT]


 
mughwI
mughwI
United States
Local time: 14:54
English to Spanish
+ ...
For those who wonder why... Oct 18, 2017

Sadly, there is this thing called First rule of human social interaction:

If it can be abused, it will be abused.

There is another phrase that might be relevant here too.

Something about a paved road?


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:54
SITE FOUNDER
Hi Giovanni! Oct 18, 2017

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
What kind of comment is this from a "SITE FOUNDER"? These "same old folks", as you call them, are critical, and you can agree with them or not, but they are your clients who also keep this platform alive.

So, instead of insulting them, hear them out, they might have a point!

I'm one of them... I like to think that we don't leave because the founder listens to "us" and gets it right, eventually, even if we have to badger him a lot...

This made me smile, Giovanni. Maybe we know each other a little bit after all these years.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:54
SITE FOUNDER
Thanks for the feedback Oct 18, 2017

Thank you all for the thoughts and feedback. We know this is an area in which it is important to proceed circumspectly. I think the group working on this topic will be posting something tomorrow, if not today. We will welcome further feedback when the first draft is put forward.

 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 19:54
Member
English to Italian
Prophetic Oct 18, 2017

Álvaro Espantaleón wrote:

Henry's move makes commercial sense and he is entitled to grow and make more money. If this initiative is implemented (I hope not) agencies will build a WWA rating database for free. Then, when this database is strong and mature, it will only be offered to translation agencies that pay a fee. It makes sense. It will be advertised as "screened professionals who provide 100% customer satisfaction". Or maybe I'm thinking too fast... Or maybe I'm not... because Henry says they will also offer Secure Payments (or something similar), which means payments channeled through Proz.com, who won't be doing this for free but for a commission. This means Proz.com receives the money from the agency, keeps it in escrow and only sends it to the translator when the agency approves the translation. So all the pieces come together: all translators use Trados, they receive positive ratings if complying with "industry standards" (low rates, repetitions are not paid, 24 hours deadlines are a normal thing, editing+proofreading for free, DTP for free, etc.) and everyone works through Proz, who becomes a marketplace.


Seeing the endless multitude of steamrolling developments, it seems you are not far off from the mark...


 
Drew MacFadyen
Drew MacFadyen  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:54
Spanish to English
+ ...
Alpha testers needed for proposed WWA rating service Oct 18, 2017

Outsourcers that are interested in being an Alpa testers please see the post in the ProZ.com Co-op forum.

Thank you,

Drew MacFadyen


 
Regi2006
Regi2006  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 01:54
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
What if ... Oct 19, 2017

What if the agency gives you 1 mark for things not related to translation quality and professionalism?For example, you are unable to update changes (requested by end client) to the delivered translation because it's weekend, and you're not available during the weekends.

Since some agencies have unrealistic expectations, how do you make sure that these kinds of unrealistic expectation would not affect the translators negatively, in terms of their rating?

Thank you.
... See more
What if the agency gives you 1 mark for things not related to translation quality and professionalism?For example, you are unable to update changes (requested by end client) to the delivered translation because it's weekend, and you're not available during the weekends.

Since some agencies have unrealistic expectations, how do you make sure that these kinds of unrealistic expectation would not affect the translators negatively, in terms of their rating?

Thank you.

Verdi
Collapse


 
Regi2006
Regi2006  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 01:54
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
Henry ... Oct 19, 2017

Henry Dotterer wrote:
The biggest freelancer websites in the world now have ratings, so that has painted people's understanding.

First of all, just because it's the biggest, it doesn't mean that, their approach, or what they are doing, should be the norm and model in this industry. In fact, most of the jobs offered in that biggest freelancer website are low paid ... it's cheap but you'll be shocked to see that that the job received a lot of quotes from those with numerous good reviews. Do you intend to make your website evolve to something like that? Not only the freelancers would lower their rates, but once they get the job, they would do anything the client ask them to do (beyond their responsibilities) with a hope that they wouldn't get a negative review from the client.

The comparison you try to make between agency blueboard and translator rating is not apple to apple. As far as agency blueboard is concerned, when they get 1 mark from translator, it's usually for obvious reason, which is most of the time undebatable. For example, they don't pay as promised. But when an agency gives a translator 1 mark for whatever reason, it's always debatable.

There are many employers/job posters in that site who think that the freelancers are their slaves. They abuse the system. They have this attitude that if you don't do anything I tell you, the way I want it (even though it's unrealistic), then you deserve to get 1 mark.

Do you know the reasons why the translators on ProZ choose to join ProZ and pay for membership here instead of joining the biggest freelancer website? Well, probably it's because ProZ is not like it.

Just as there are bad translators, there are also bad agencies and clients. I received a job from a new client. As they sent me additional files during the course of translation, it turned out that many of the pages are scanned. They demanded that I retyped the original texts in Excel file, for free.

After all, I should be grateful that they picked me out of the many translators applying for the job on ProZ, shouldn't I? Later, instead of writing a fact-based review like this, "I give this translator 1 mark because he refused to retype a few pages of original texts in Excel for the translation job I gave him", they could simply write this vague general review like this, "This translator is uncooperative, and difficult to deal with".

Another example, instead of honestly writing, "this translator does not want to update urgent client changes on weekends because he was on holiday with his family", they conveniently state, "this translator is not responsive and communication with him is horrible".

What kind of impression this unjustified review would leave to the translator's future potential clients?

And what about the agencies and clients that can't tell the difference between translation job and DTP job? Or between editing and proofreading job?

In that scenario, should I do everything that they told me otherwise they would not be satisfied and give me 1 mark? After all, it's all about their satisfaction. What would be your response to that, Henry?

You don't seem to take into account the fact that there are some agencies and clients which are not reasonable with their additional requests (introduced after the translator has started with the job). Or they give wrong information about the text being of general nature, when in fact it is not. And many other possibilities that could happen.

Some have a good grasp of translator profession, and some don't. And the good professional translators would be affected negatively and unfairly by these unreasonable agencies, and it would all be justified by the new system that you're going to introduce.

Thank you.

[Edited at 2017-10-19 08:13 GMT]


 
Maija Cirule
Maija Cirule  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 20:54
German to English
+ ...
I don't see any point Oct 19, 2017

in discussing this "initiative" as Mister Dotterer has unequivocally stated that he does not give a rat's patootie about old grumpy bats' jabber.

 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

¡Finally here! WWA rating for translators







Wordfast Pro
Translation Memory Software for Any Platform

Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users! Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value

Buy now! »
CafeTran Espresso
You've never met a CAT tool this clever!

Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer. Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools. Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free

Buy now! »