Advice on Arabic DTP Thread poster: Libero_Lang_Lab
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We are about to start work on a translation project into several languages, including Arabic, that will involve some DTP elements. One issue that one always encounters in this territory is the discrepancies between various languages when it comes to page layout i.e. in terms of how much physical space is needed on the page. Can any seasoned Arabic translations provide any advice on how much more, or less, space Arabic requires, compared to English (which will be the source language)? Does that m... See more We are about to start work on a translation project into several languages, including Arabic, that will involve some DTP elements. One issue that one always encounters in this territory is the discrepancies between various languages when it comes to page layout i.e. in terms of how much physical space is needed on the page. Can any seasoned Arabic translations provide any advice on how much more, or less, space Arabic requires, compared to English (which will be the source language)? Does that make sense? Thanks in advance. Dan ▲ Collapse | | | Sam Berner Australia Local time: 09:26 Member (2003) English to Arabic + ...
Hi Dan, I have been translating for 26 years, and my personal experience is that the Arabic text is always a bit shortter that the original English. However, this depends on the subject matter of your source document. If it is highly technical and your translator has to explain what a term means because there is no elegant equivalent in Arabic, then you may find yourself with more than you bargained for. | | | Libero_Lang_Lab United Kingdom Local time: 00:26 Russian to English + ... TOPIC STARTER
Hi Sam Many thanks for that. Appreciated. The text in question will relate to a sport that is played within the Arab-speaking world, so on that basis I would hope everything should be translatable without the need for lengthy explanations. Regards, Dan | | | Libero_Lang_Lab United Kingdom Local time: 00:26 Russian to English + ... TOPIC STARTER
Would anyone care to offer an approximate ratio when it comes to English/Arabic? Wholly unscientific, I realise, but it would be very useful as a guage. For instance, I know from personal experience that Russian into English tends to generate a wordcount of about 10-15% greater in the target language as compared to the source, and thus requires more space on the page. English to Spanish tends to generate 15-20% more in the target than the source, so again the Spanish te... See more Would anyone care to offer an approximate ratio when it comes to English/Arabic? Wholly unscientific, I realise, but it would be very useful as a guage. For instance, I know from personal experience that Russian into English tends to generate a wordcount of about 10-15% greater in the target language as compared to the source, and thus requires more space on the page. English to Spanish tends to generate 15-20% more in the target than the source, so again the Spanish tends to require more space on the page etc. ▲ Collapse | |
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TargamaT team France Local time: 01:26 Member (2010) English to Arabic + ... Readability and Matchmaking | Feb 18, 2011 |
As an Arabic DTP Expert, I have 15-20% less space in Arabic for the same readability level. Actually, you have to choose professional fonts and to do a matchmaking with Latin fonts. I hope that help... Oussama
[Edited at 2011-02-18 16:40 GMT] | | | Sorour Local time: 01:26 Italian to Arabic + ... font and size | Feb 18, 2011 |
You need to choose font that support Arabic script, and remember that the arabic font size must be up by 2 point. | | | Several factors | Feb 18, 2011 |
1. Word count: Arabic word count (in a good translation) is about 20% lower than the English word count. One reason is that many words are merged with other words as prefixes or suffixes. This category includes the definite article, the number "two" (when used adjectivally), some prepositions, some interrogatives, some conjunctions, object pronouns, and possessive adjectives. Another reason is that certain linguistic elements are simply not stated as words at all. This category includes inde... See more 1. Word count: Arabic word count (in a good translation) is about 20% lower than the English word count. One reason is that many words are merged with other words as prefixes or suffixes. This category includes the definite article, the number "two" (when used adjectivally), some prepositions, some interrogatives, some conjunctions, object pronouns, and possessive adjectives. Another reason is that certain linguistic elements are simply not stated as words at all. This category includes indefinite articles as well as the verb "to be" in simple declarative constructions. Consequently, a five-word phrase, like "A Tale of Two Cities," becomes a two-word phrase: قصة مدينتين Of course, poor style, which is rampant, causes word count inflation. The most notorious stylistic infelicity is the use of dummy verbs. Examples: English: He ate the sandwich. Poor Arabic (in back translation): He undertook the eating of the sandwich. English: The sandwich was eaten. Poor Arabic (in back translation): The eating of the sandwich was completed. I have even invented names for these two types of poor style. I call the first type Qamqama القمقمة because of the irritating use of the verb QAMA قام, and the second type Tamtama التمتمة because of the irritatingly repetitive use of the verb TAMMA تم Another factor that would raise the word count in some passages is the aversion towards abbreviations. 2. Font: Your question is specifically about the physical space and how it affects the layout. Fonts will make a big difference. The tendency among most translators is to keep the same font name when translating. Unfortunately, the same font name does not mean the same font, because Arabic letters have entirely different characteristics. Those of us who have practiced the art of Arabic calligraphy abhor such fonts as Arabic Arial and Arabic Times. They are a disgrace. When using MS Word, I use "Traditional Arabic" because it is the closest to real Arabic. The vew version (beginning with Windows 7) has enhanced this font even more. Using this font, however, requires some space management on two fronts: a. Font size: Most texts come in either Arial 10 or Times 12. The equivalent in Traditional Arabic is 14. b. Line spacing: In general, Arabic tends to take less space horizontally, but more space vertically. This is even more so in Traditional Arabic font. To manage vertical space, you need to play with line spacing. In most cases, 0.85 seems to be the right line spacing. Of course, if you do not mind the esthetic issues in Arabic Arial and Arabic Times, there will be no need for line space adjustment or font size adjustment. ▲ Collapse | | |
Fuad Yahya wrote: 1. Word count: Arabic word count (in a good translation) is about 20% lower than the English word count. One reason is that many words are merged with other words as prefixes or suffixes. This category includes the definite article, the number "two" (when used adjectivally), some prepositions, some interrogatives, some conjunctions, object pronouns, and possessive adjectives. Another reason is that certain linguistic elements are simply not stated as words at all. This category includes indefinite articles as well as the verb "to be" in simple declarative constructions. Consequently, a five-word phrase, like "A Tale of Two Cities," becomes a two-word phrase: قصة مدينتين Of course, poor style, which is rampant, causes word count inflation. The most notorious stylistic infelicity is the use of dummy verbs. Examples: English: He ate the sandwich. Poor Arabic (in back translation): He undertook the eating of the sandwich. English: The sandwich was eaten. Poor Arabic (in back translation): The eating of the sandwich was completed. I have even invented names for these two types of poor style. I call the first type Qamqama القمقمة because of the irritating use of the verb QAMA قام, and the second type Tamtama التمتمة because of the irritatingly repetitive use of the verb TAMMA تم Another factor that would raise the word count in some passages is the aversion towards abbreviations. 2. Font: Your question is specifically about the physical space and how it affects the layout. Fonts will make a big difference. The tendency among most translators is to keep the same font name when translating. Unfortunately, the same font name does not mean the same font, because Arabic letters have entirely different characteristics. Those of us who have practiced the art of Arabic calligraphy abhor such fonts as Arabic Arial and Arabic Times. They are a disgrace. When using MS Word, I use "Traditional Arabic" because it is the closest to real Arabic. The vew version (beginning with Windows 7) has enhanced this font even more. Using this font, however, requires some space management on two fronts: a. Font size: Most texts come in either Arial 10 or Times 12. The equivalent in Traditional Arabic is 14. b. Line spacing: In general, Arabic tends to take less space horizontally, but more space vertically. This is even more so in Traditional Arabic font. To manage vertical space, you need to play with line spacing. In most cases, 0.85 seems to be the right line spacing. Of course, if you do not mind the esthetic issues in Arabic Arial and Arabic Times, there will be no need for line space adjustment or font size adjustment. Great elaboration Fuad. Thank you | |
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Libero_Lang_Lab United Kingdom Local time: 00:26 Russian to English + ... TOPIC STARTER Thank you all | Mar 6, 2011 |
Thank you all for some illuminating responses. Thanks, not least, to Fuad for a fascinating read. I have a much clearer grasp of what lies ahead now. | | | TargamaT team France Local time: 01:26 Member (2010) English to Arabic + ... Qamqama and Tamtama | Mar 7, 2011 |
Thanks Fuad, I would like to use, with your permission, some of these nice ideas! Qamqama and Tamtama are a real catastrophes in our modern journalistic alike (and light) writings! Regards, Oussama
[Edited at 2011-03-08 12:06 GMT] | | | Sami Khamou Local time: 19:26 Member (2002) English to Arabic + ...
Hi Fuad, I agree totally with your ideas. Another item can be added to your invention i.e. Qadaqid قــداقــد Kind regards, Sami | | | Libero_Lang_Lab United Kingdom Local time: 00:26 Russian to English + ... TOPIC STARTER A further query | May 31, 2011 |
Fuad et al, can I draw you back to the initial discussion here, and pose a couple of other related questions: If one were to use the Traditional Arabic font that you recommended in 14pt, Fuad, would you expect this to equate, in terms of physical space, to an English source text produced in Times New Roman 12pt? Secondly, in an actual Arabic periodical or other publication, am I right in assuming that the spine is on the right rather than on the left, given that the tex... See more Fuad et al, can I draw you back to the initial discussion here, and pose a couple of other related questions: If one were to use the Traditional Arabic font that you recommended in 14pt, Fuad, would you expect this to equate, in terms of physical space, to an English source text produced in Times New Roman 12pt? Secondly, in an actual Arabic periodical or other publication, am I right in assuming that the spine is on the right rather than on the left, given that the text reads right to left? Thanks again! Dan ▲ Collapse | |
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Further clarification | May 31, 2011 |
Dan Brennan wrote: If one were to use the Traditional Arabic font that you recommended in 14pt, Fuad, would you expect this to equate, in terms of physical space, to an English source text produced in Times New Roman 12pt? Yes, but you may still need to manipulate line spacing. 0.85 seems to do the trick most of the time. Text that is vertical-intensive (such as lists, bullets, and columnar text) will require more vertical squeezing, sometimes around 0.7. Secondly, in an actual Arabic periodical or other publication, am I right in assuming that the spine is on the right rather than on the left, given that the text reads right to left?
Yes. | | | TargamaT team France Local time: 01:26 Member (2010) English to Arabic + ... الأنأنة والقبلنة | Jun 15, 2011 |
رغم خروج هذا الموضع عن سياق السؤال ولكن لأود إضافة هاتين الآفتين إلى المجموعة وعسى أن نفتح مساقًا خاصًا بهذه الآفات الأنأنة الإكثار من فإنَّ، وإنَّ وما شابهها القبلنة الإكثار من من قِبَل | | | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Advice on Arabic DTP TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
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