| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | How do you become fluent in 11 languages?
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| | Hafizul Islam
Bangladesh
Local time: 12:24
English to Bengali
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| Agreed, it is absurd | Feb 25, 2012 |
Hindi and Bengali derived from the same Sangskrit . As far as speaking is concerned Hindi has similarity with Urdu , although writing is different . So being skilled in these three is not difficult . I learned Deutsch while working with Radio Germany . I could to a little extent understand dutch . Preliminary Arabic I learned in my boyhood . Every second word I utter is English despite being a Bangali . But is it enough to claim to be knowing all seven language ? I will simply say -- No .... See more Hindi and Bengali derived from the same Sangskrit . As far as speaking is concerned Hindi has similarity with Urdu , although writing is different . So being skilled in these three is not difficult . I learned Deutsch while working with Radio Germany . I could to a little extent understand dutch . Preliminary Arabic I learned in my boyhood . Every second word I utter is English despite being a Bangali . But is it enough to claim to be knowing all seven language ? I will simply say -- No .
[Edited at 2012-02-26 07:00 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-02-26 07:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Allison Wright (X) 
Portugal
Local time: 07:24
| Poor sentence structure in article. | Feb 25, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
....when they make grammatical "mistakes/mishaps" in the wording of the conditions too.
"with nominees chatting to the judges fluent...[ly?] in their individual languages over webcam"
....someone throw them an adverb please.
"fluent" is modifying "judges", not nominees. If it were a well-written article, however, there would be no ambiguity.
I too correct people at every opportunity, if they mention the number of languages I "speak" or am "fluent in". I say that I am a *translator* from [insert source languages], but I am fluent in my mother tongue only. And that is the truth! I also take the opportunity to explain the distinction between translating and interpreting. The normal response to all of this is, "well, you're "good at languages", then". Again, I say no, I am good at *translating* from the A, B, and C languages into English, not "good at languages" per se. These statements leave people generally unimpressed, but at least I have not given a false impression. That is the point; people want to be impressed. That is why articles like this (with live video demonstration) are so popular with everyone except those truly fluent in more than one language, and translators and interpreters.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 11:54
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | In how many of these 11 can he pass the ATA certification | Feb 26, 2012 |
That is what would interest me really as a professional translator.
BTW, I am a pretty good polyglot myself:
Working languages : Hindi and English
Known languages: Malayalam, Tamil, Gujarati and Sanskrit.
That makes 6 in all!
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:24
Hebrew to English
| Light bulb comes on in my head.... | Feb 26, 2012 |
Allison Wright wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
....when they make grammatical "mistakes/mishaps" in the wording of the conditions too.
"with nominees chatting to the judges fluent...[ly?] in their individual languages over webcam"
....someone throw them an adverb please.
"fluent" is modifying "judges", not nominees. If it were a well-written article, however, there would be no ambiguity. I too correct people at every opportunity, if they mention the number of languages I "speak" or am "fluent in". I say that I am a *translator* from [insert source languages], but I am fluent in my mother tongue only. And that is the truth! I also take the opportunity to explain the distinction between translating and interpreting. The normal response to all of this is, "well, you're "good at languages", then". Again, I say no, I am good at *translating* from the A, B, and C languages into English, not "good at languages" per se. These statements leave people generally unimpressed, but at least I have not given a false impression. That is the point; people want to be impressed. That is why articles like this (with live video demonstration) are so popular with everyone except those truly fluent in more than one language, and translators and interpreters.
Ahhhh, I just re-read that and got it. Talk about dodgy writing!
And I agree with you in everything else you say too. I think the real problem is in using(abusing?) the word "fluent".
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564354352 (X)
Denmark
Local time: 08:24
Danish to English
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| Well, I was impressed! | Feb 27, 2012 |
I am surprised at the many negative comments here. I watched this chap chatting away confidently, and I was impressed and ever so slightly envious. I wish I could speak that many languages. At any level. So, he may not speak these languages fluently in 'professional linguistic' terms, but hey, he's so young, and he is actually able to USE that many languages at some level. That IS impressive!
In Denmark, we have something we call 'Janteloven', 'the law of Jante', the general gist of w... See more I am surprised at the many negative comments here. I watched this chap chatting away confidently, and I was impressed and ever so slightly envious. I wish I could speak that many languages. At any level. So, he may not speak these languages fluently in 'professional linguistic' terms, but hey, he's so young, and he is actually able to USE that many languages at some level. That IS impressive!
In Denmark, we have something we call 'Janteloven', 'the law of Jante', the general gist of which is 'Don't think you are worth anything'. It's a terrible thing that permeates our society, where people pick on others who have faith in themselves and are not afraid to show that they are actually good at something or that they have achieved something. I believe it corresponds to what is called 'tall poppy syndrome' in English, or maybe, crudely: envy.
We are all linguists here, why aren't we all jumping for joy when we hear about a young chap who enjoys learning languages and doing what we all aspire to: communicating with many different people, in many different cultures.
And by the way, there are other definitions of 'fluency' than the one referred to in previous comments. Fluency may also mean 'to be able to speak without hesitation'.
I admire this young chap, regardless of what the purpose of the contest is. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:24
Hebrew to English
| Nobody is especially criticising him.... | Feb 27, 2012 |
Indeed, there's no evidence anywhere that Alex himself claims to be "fluent" in any of his languages.
However, as someone mentioned in another thread (but talking about the same thing - http://www.proz.com/forum/teaching_and_learning_languages/218785-fluent_in_11_languages.html )
....to some extent Alex is inviting cri... See more Indeed, there's no evidence anywhere that Alex himself claims to be "fluent" in any of his languages.
However, as someone mentioned in another thread (but talking about the same thing - http://www.proz.com/forum/teaching_and_learning_languages/218785-fluent_in_11_languages.html )
....to some extent Alex is inviting critical comment on his abilities by entering(and winning) a public competition and then appearing in the media to showcase (brag about) it...
So it can't be a shock when people actually do begin to assess the very same abilities he has just used to win a competition. I think envy has very little to do with it - we're all adults here (I for one prefer the study of my source language and wouldn't want to learn so many languages, although I did when I was his age).
In any case, my critique was mainly reserved for the BBC who are the ones banding around the term "fluent", which is such a wishy-washy concept with so many definitions and scientifically flawed that no linguist should really use it at all. (As well as Collins who are complicit in the whole debacle, who more than likely set up the media coverage and who are basking in the free publicity). You can almost forgive the BBC, there's no reason they should know better, but Collins publish language books, I'd like to think there's a linguist or two in their ranks but when I see things like this it makes me question...).
So yes, bravo to Alex. I too hope he continues with languages and focuses on the ones he loves most., but I wish the media would stop churning out these stories with inaccurate and misleading terminology which perpetuate language myths, present a distorted and one-sided view (that quantity is better than quality in languages) and do little to promote the study of languages.
[Edited at 2012-02-27 08:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Sloppy use of terminology | Feb 27, 2012 |
For a forum of self-professed linguists*, there is an amazing amount of terminology confusion in the discussion above (that and a fair share of good old "penis-envy").
Linguists (not "language practitioners" like translators or the like but people concerned with the academic discipline linguistics) spend a great deal of time discussing how to define key terms. For example:
The distinction between accuracy and fluency is parallel to that of code and communication in second ... See more For a forum of self-professed linguists*, there is an amazing amount of terminology confusion in the discussion above (that and a fair share of good old "penis-envy").
Linguists (not "language practitioners" like translators or the like but people concerned with the academic discipline linguistics) spend a great deal of time discussing how to define key terms. For example:
The distinction between accuracy and fluency is parallel to that of code and communication in second language assessment respectively. The emphasis on the former (accuracy/code) deals with the production of structurally correct instances of L2 (second language). The latter (fluency/communication) focuses on functional appropriateness and the smooth ‘flow’ of L2. Oral fluency is associated with the lack of undue pausing and hesitation, and both oral and written fluency has been defined in terms of the natural use of vocabulary, idioms and automatization of grammatical structures ( Leeson, 1975 ).
Now, while this passage clarifies how several of the discussion entries above actually use "fluency" when they mean accuracy, it is still not able to draw the line that tells us "this is where fluency starts". Because what standard do you base the definition "natural use of vocabulary, idioms and grammar" on? Do you use the lowest possible L1-level where you're still fully functional to work and finish 10 years of schooling? Or do you need to aim higher, and define real fluency as the command a participant on a winning debate team would have?
And if your aim is high, how do you define the 50-70% of monolinguals? as non fluent in their only language?
Basically, I believe we need to set our standards lower. Fluency is when conversations on general subjects flow effortlessly (meaning you can go on for a long time without pauses), where only rarely you need to confirm and control that you've understood what is said, where accent and grammar errors aren't absent, but they're not making it difficult to understand, where pronunciation and phonetics isn't making it hard for the L1-mother tongue speaker to understand.
Personally I consider myself fully, professionally fluent in 3 languages (meaning I can speak and write on a professional level in my mother tongue and two more), I can "get by" in two more language, and probably obtain a lower level fluency by immersing myself in these cultures for 2-3 months.
And unlike some of the "haters" above, I fully understand the thrill of learning another language, not because one wants to show off, but because few things make me feel more alive than grappling with learning a new language - and few things are as rewarding as being able to communicate with others in their native language.
* I use the term ”linguist” inappropriately according to my own definition here, following how many of us define themselves, but I do feel it is incorrect use of the word
[Edited at 2012-02-27 20:05 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-02-27 20:16 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-02-27 20:28 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:24
Hebrew to English
| The word "fluency" should just be avoided | Feb 27, 2012 |
The problem with a more generic layman definition of fluency (i.e. the one understood by the vast majority of people) is that it doesn't distinguish between accuracy and the mainly pedagogical definition of fluency. For example:
flu·ent/ˈflo͞oənt/
Adjective: 1.(of a person) Able to express oneself easily and articulately: "a fluent speaker and writer on technical subjects".
2.(of a person) Able to speak or write a particular foreign language easily and accurately<... See more The problem with a more generic layman definition of fluency (i.e. the one understood by the vast majority of people) is that it doesn't distinguish between accuracy and the mainly pedagogical definition of fluency. For example:
flu·ent/ˈflo͞oənt/
Adjective: 1.(of a person) Able to express oneself easily and articulately: "a fluent speaker and writer on technical subjects".
2.(of a person) Able to speak or write a particular foreign language easily and accurately: "she became fluent in French and German".
..."easily and accurately".
This is the problem with using the word "fluency". There are much better words to describe one's level of ability in another language.
Therefore, it's hardly surprising if you get a headline broadcasting "Fluent in 11 languages", you'll get people picking up on inaccuracies etc. I wouldn't necessarily label them "haters" or accuse them of "penis-envy" (especially if they are women)
Envy usually requires desire, and I think few of the "haters" would wish to be mediocre in a dozen languages. Some people prefer to excel in a one/a few.
In addition, some translators consider themselves linguists and I definitely wouldn't adovcate the lowering of standards, they're quite low enough.
[Edited at 2012-02-27 20:35 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | According to Freud's theory | Feb 27, 2012 |
girls/women are exactly the ones that are affected by penis-envy.
Goes once more to prove how important it is to research and define terms before initiating a discussion.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:24
Hebrew to English
| Moved on since Freud's day....... | Feb 27, 2012 |
Hege Jakobsen Lepri wrote:
girls/women are exactly the ones that are affected by penis-envy.
Goes once more to prove how important it is to research and define terms before initiating a discussion.
I know, I was using the popular culture definition/adaptation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_envy#In_popular_culture) ...
"The media attention given to penis size and some women being vocal in their penis size preferences have led some men to state their anxiety over their penis size."
...and the smiley face indicated the light-hearted nature of the comment.
Goes once more to prove how important it is not to jump to conclusions.
[Edited at 2012-02-27 20:52 GMT]
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