Glossary entry (derived from question below)
German term or phrase:
im warmen Bereich
English translation:
above the dew point/dew-point temperature
- The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2014-09-03 12:55:27 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
Aug 30, 2014 15:48
9 yrs ago
2 viewers *
German term
im warmen Bereich
German to English
Tech/Engineering
Construction / Civil Engineering
thermal insulation properties of walls
The phrase ''im warmen Bereich'' appears in a paragraph which describes the influence of condensation on a wall's thermal insulation properties. After saying that outer walls need insulation to comply with statutory regulations, they conclude by saying ''...die Wandkonstruktion ist immer im warmen Bereich.'' Is this supposed to be an idiomatic expression, or is it a common turn of phrase in this field? Google hasn't been very helpful thus far.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +2 | above the dew point/dew-point temperature |
Björn Vrooman
|
| 3 | in a warm state |
Michael Martin, MA
|
Proposed translations
+2
3 days 19 hrs
Selected
above the dew point/dew-point temperature
"Is this supposed to be an idiomatic expression, or is it a common turn of phrase in this field?"
Well, it's a common phrase - but it is a bit imprecise. "warm" is such a relative term. If the reference entry hasn't already made it clear to you, maybe the following link will:
"Sub-and-Top-Lösungen der DASATOP bieten das größte Bauschadensfreiheitspotential mit allen faserförmigen Dämmstoffen, da sich diese unterhalb der Wärmedämmung im warmen Bereich befindet (wärmer als die Taupunkttemperatur). Auf den Sparren kann sie den Diffusionswiderstand einer Unterspannbahn annehmen."
http://www.wissenwiki.de/Bauphysik_Sanierungs-Studie
This one even has the phrase in quotation marks:
"Durch Fassadendämmplatten wird der Temperaturunterschied zwischen der Raumluft und raumseitigen Wandoberfläche deutlich verringert, da die Wand im 'warmen' Bereich bleibt. Dadurch vermindert sich das Risiko des Tauwasserausfalls (Kondensatbildung) auf der Wandinnenseite und damit auch der gesundheitsgefährdenden Pilz- und Schimmelbildung."
http://www.maler.org/fassadendaemmplatten-201417713
After consulting some other documents containing the word, I believe Bereich most likely means temperature range, but I wouldn't worry too much about it. The main point is: The walls of the thermal envelope (see below) need to be (somewhat) close to room temperature ( "Die Punkte 4 und 7 liegen weiter im warmen Bereich und folgen stärker dem Innenklima" - http://www.gruenderzeitplus.at/downloads/Gruenderzeit-mit-Zu... ) to prevent any moisture from accumulating on the interior of the walls. I say "interior" here because the company surely does not want to make you think about the following:
"Vorsicht beim Bezug von Neubauten oder nach umfangreichen Umbau- und Renovierungsarbeiten. In den Baustoffen steckt viel Wasser, das erst im Laufe vieler Monate entweichen kann. In dieser Zeit ist richtiges intensives Heizen und Lüften besonders wichtig. In früheren Zeiten war 'Trockenwohnen' ein Begriff – heute ist dies zu Unrecht oft in Vergessenheit geraten. Auch in neuen energiesparenden Passivhäusern kann es aus diesem Grund nach Bezug zu Feuchte- und Schimmelproblemen kommen."
http://www.fornefett.de/montage/images/Feuchte-Daemmung.pdf
Here, mold could grow inside the wall and be visible only later. But that's not what they want you to think about (it's mostly a problem of how much time is allocated to letting a house dry out, so that wouldn't make for good marketing). They simply explain that because the walls are kept relatively warm, all the water condensing inside the house (because of breathing, showering, etc.) will not make the wall wet (dew needs a surface), especially because the warmer the air, the more water it can hold.
There's also the matter of tight exterior insulation keeping walls cold in summer (by blocking sunlight). But we'll stick to "warm" because that may just be opening Pandora's box now.
Thus, you can choose among:
- the walls are always warm (really vague)
- wall temperatures are always above the dew point
- the wall(s) always exceed(s) the dew-point temperature
or similar...
Also a nice way to put it:
"When it comes to cold climate construction, a wall system must address multiple issues. Heat losses through air flow and conduction must be minimized. Effectively stopping water vapor infiltration from heated spaces into the wall assembly is another big concern. If humid indoor air is allowed to migrate into an exterior wall during the winter months, it will condense on any components that are below the dew point (the point at which vapor condenses, a function of temperature and relative humidity)."
http://www.cchrc.org/remote-walls
I need to add a note of caution, however:
"Water can manifest in the interior walls when the temperature drops below dew point or when vapor pressure rises above saturated vapor pressure at a given temperature. When this process is visible to building occupants, it is called condensation."
http://www.cdc-usa.com/blog/2013/06/it-really-leak
But we're just talking about "warmen Bereich" here, not vapor pressure.
Well, it's a common phrase - but it is a bit imprecise. "warm" is such a relative term. If the reference entry hasn't already made it clear to you, maybe the following link will:
"Sub-and-Top-Lösungen der DASATOP bieten das größte Bauschadensfreiheitspotential mit allen faserförmigen Dämmstoffen, da sich diese unterhalb der Wärmedämmung im warmen Bereich befindet (wärmer als die Taupunkttemperatur). Auf den Sparren kann sie den Diffusionswiderstand einer Unterspannbahn annehmen."
http://www.wissenwiki.de/Bauphysik_Sanierungs-Studie
This one even has the phrase in quotation marks:
"Durch Fassadendämmplatten wird der Temperaturunterschied zwischen der Raumluft und raumseitigen Wandoberfläche deutlich verringert, da die Wand im 'warmen' Bereich bleibt. Dadurch vermindert sich das Risiko des Tauwasserausfalls (Kondensatbildung) auf der Wandinnenseite und damit auch der gesundheitsgefährdenden Pilz- und Schimmelbildung."
http://www.maler.org/fassadendaemmplatten-201417713
After consulting some other documents containing the word, I believe Bereich most likely means temperature range, but I wouldn't worry too much about it. The main point is: The walls of the thermal envelope (see below) need to be (somewhat) close to room temperature ( "Die Punkte 4 und 7 liegen weiter im warmen Bereich und folgen stärker dem Innenklima" - http://www.gruenderzeitplus.at/downloads/Gruenderzeit-mit-Zu... ) to prevent any moisture from accumulating on the interior of the walls. I say "interior" here because the company surely does not want to make you think about the following:
"Vorsicht beim Bezug von Neubauten oder nach umfangreichen Umbau- und Renovierungsarbeiten. In den Baustoffen steckt viel Wasser, das erst im Laufe vieler Monate entweichen kann. In dieser Zeit ist richtiges intensives Heizen und Lüften besonders wichtig. In früheren Zeiten war 'Trockenwohnen' ein Begriff – heute ist dies zu Unrecht oft in Vergessenheit geraten. Auch in neuen energiesparenden Passivhäusern kann es aus diesem Grund nach Bezug zu Feuchte- und Schimmelproblemen kommen."
http://www.fornefett.de/montage/images/Feuchte-Daemmung.pdf
Here, mold could grow inside the wall and be visible only later. But that's not what they want you to think about (it's mostly a problem of how much time is allocated to letting a house dry out, so that wouldn't make for good marketing). They simply explain that because the walls are kept relatively warm, all the water condensing inside the house (because of breathing, showering, etc.) will not make the wall wet (dew needs a surface), especially because the warmer the air, the more water it can hold.
There's also the matter of tight exterior insulation keeping walls cold in summer (by blocking sunlight). But we'll stick to "warm" because that may just be opening Pandora's box now.
Thus, you can choose among:
- the walls are always warm (really vague)
- wall temperatures are always above the dew point
- the wall(s) always exceed(s) the dew-point temperature
or similar...
Also a nice way to put it:
"When it comes to cold climate construction, a wall system must address multiple issues. Heat losses through air flow and conduction must be minimized. Effectively stopping water vapor infiltration from heated spaces into the wall assembly is another big concern. If humid indoor air is allowed to migrate into an exterior wall during the winter months, it will condense on any components that are below the dew point (the point at which vapor condenses, a function of temperature and relative humidity)."
http://www.cchrc.org/remote-walls
I need to add a note of caution, however:
"Water can manifest in the interior walls when the temperature drops below dew point or when vapor pressure rises above saturated vapor pressure at a given temperature. When this process is visible to building occupants, it is called condensation."
http://www.cdc-usa.com/blog/2013/06/it-really-leak
But we're just talking about "warmen Bereich" here, not vapor pressure.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Lancashireman
: 'Dew point' is the better suggestion that Michael was waiting for.
7 mins
|
|
Thank you! I'm glad it worked out fine.
|
|
| agree |
Coqueiro
9 mins
|
|
Thank you as well - also for the discussion entries!
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
9 hrs
Michael Martin, MA
United States
United States
Native in German
&
English
United States
Creativity wins in the long run
Native in: German (Variant: Germany) 
, English (Variant: US)
Works in: German to English
Related KudoZ points
:
82
in a warm state
I think this is basically used in the same way as in the quote below:
"The interior of compact RT equipment is always in a warm state due to heat generated by the power supply section and other areas."
https://www.ntt-review.jp/anqtest/archive/ntttechnical.php?c...
"The interior of compact RT equipment is always in a warm state due to heat generated by the power supply section and other areas."
https://www.ntt-review.jp/anqtest/archive/ntttechnical.php?c...
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
writeaway
: well, the ref fits your proposed translation but whether the proposed translation fits the German in the question is another matter.
11 hrs
|
|
I agree. I am still waiting to hear better suggestions, though..
|
Reference comments
22 hrs
Reference:
"im warmen Bereich" with German and English explanation
I'm going to cite a few references followed by an explanation in English. In general, it's about heat losses. Maybe some of the other words may help you as well!
"WDVS bieten einen ausgezeichneten Witterungsschutz. Sie erfüllen die Anforderungen an die höchste Schlagregenbeanspruchungsgruppe. Aber nicht nur die äußere Feuchtigkeit spielt eine Rolle. Die raumseitige Luftfeuchtigkeit kann bei unzureichend gedämmten Wänden kondensieren und Schäden verursachen.
Gesundheitsgefährdende Pilz- und Schimmelbildungen sind die Folge. Dem beugen WDVS u.a. dadurch vor, dass die Wand im warmen Bereich verbleibt und der Temperaturunterschied zwischen Innenraumluft und raumseitiger Wandoberfläche deutlich reduziert wird."
http://www.heizkosten-einsparen.de/~run/views/verarbeiter/wd...
You could think of both temperature and area at first. However, thinking about the exterior wall and "verbleibt" separated from the temperature explanation, I favor "area" over "temperature range" here.
"Grundsätzlich erhöht sich infolge der Dämmung die Temperatur der Außenwände. Feuchtigkeit kondensiert grundsätzlich an der kältesten Stelle. Die Außenwände werden somit durch die Außendämmung geschützt. Die Wände befinden sich im warmen Bereich und ein “kältester Punkt” so wie auf dem Foto ist nicht mehr vorhanden. Aufgrund dieser höheren Wandoberflächentemperaturen kann somit aus bauphysikalischer Sicht die Feuchtigkeit aus der (feuchten) Raumluft deutlich schlechter kondensieren, die Wand ist damit insgesamt trockener. Je trockener die Wandoberfläche, um so unwahrscheinlicher ist wiederum die Gefahr der Schimmelpilzbildung."
http://www.wir-hausbesitzer.de/blog/bauphysik/dammung/daemmw...
Hard to say here but we can discern that "kältester Punkt" means the dew point here (the coldest point of the wall at which the temperature difference is so high that the water condenses).
See also:
"Noch dringlicher als bei monolithischen Mauern ist die thermische Entkoppelung zu Fundament bzw. Keller bei Mauerwerk mit Wärmedämmverbundsystemen (WDVS). Die Wärmebrücke beim Mauerwerk mit WDVS ist noch ausgeprägter, weil die Leitfähigkeit schwerer Hochlochziegel oder Betonsteine 2-5mal so hoch ist wie bei porosierten Leichtziegeln, Porenbetonsteinen oder Blähtonsteinen. Durch die außen liegende Dämmung liegt praktisch der ganze Wandquerschnitt im warmen Bereich, somit nimmt im Unterschied zum vorigen Beispiel der Wärmefluß zur Mauersohle nach außen hin kaum ab."
http://www.bauweise.net/grundlagen/daemmung/daemmung03.htm
"Isothermenverlauf eines nachträglich gedämmten Außenwandabschnitts. Das Mauerwerk liegt komplett im warmen Bereich und auf Grund der Innenoberflächentemperaturen besteht keine Schimmelgefahr."
https://www.kfw.de/PDF/Download-Center/Förderprogramme-(Inla...
The point of the last two links is: Because of the exterior wall insulation, the walls are almost as warm as the interior (at most, a difference of a few degrees Celsius).
The walls themselves are part of the thermal envelope (which is why you could say the heat stays within the thermal envelope but not inside):
"What's a thermal envelope? No, it's not a steaming hot letter you get from a bill collector.
A new home typically delivers the best performance – and comfort—when it's designed for a tight thermal envelope from the ground up."
http://www.proudgreenhome.com/articles/how-to-build-an-energ...
The envelope should show thermal continuity:
"The issues which arise are similar to those with intermediate floors or with staircases. With a masonry structure, insulation in a cavity, or exterior insulation, both deliver thermal continuity. This is because the insulation runs uninterrupted either externally or in the cavity and outside the junction of the walls."
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/...
The continuity is achieved by wall insulation with a good R-value (or U-value) and few thermal bridges:
"However, this nominally takes into account the insulating value of the material itself. The whole wall can be compromised due to thermal bridging and air leakage, which can decrease the actual R-value by as much as 50 percent or more in steel-framed walls and 24 percent or more in wood-framed walls.
Adding thicker cavity insulation does little when trying to improve the thermal efficiency of the wall, as it does not mitigate thermal bridging or air leakage."
http://www.dryvit.com/iecc/energyloss/index.html
And:
"The insulation will also increase the temperature of the internal surface of the wall, making it less likely that you will get condensation problems on your walls."
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Insulation/Solid-wall-in...
Example for the dew point:
"If the interior of the building is kept at 70°F and 35% relative humidity, we can use the psychrometric chart to determine the dew point. On the bottom of the chart, find 70°F. Follow the vertical line up from 70°F at the base until you intersect a curved line corresponding to 35% relative humidity. From that intersection point, follow a horizontal line to the left side of the chart, until the horizontal line intersects the curved line indicating 100% relative humidity. You can read the dew point temperature along that curved line; it’s about 40°F. You just determined the dew point for 70°F air at 35% relative humidity.
Your 28°F sheathing is below the dew point, which means that as long as these conditions continue, the sheathing is likely to accumulate moisture.
If, on the other hand, the interior of the building is kept at 65°F and 20% relative humidity, the psychrometric chart tells us that the dew point is 24°F. So our 28°F sheathing is above the dew point — as long as the interior conditions don’t change."
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/are-d...
Thus, the better the thermal performance of the wall, the more water the air (and the wall) can retain, which helps to eliminate any mold problems:
"Insulating the exterior of a foundation can block moisture and keep the concrete warm. A warm inside surface means that humidity won't condense into liquid and can cause mold growth. Rigid foam is a good choice under slabs. Rigid or spray foam installed inside the foundation walls stops capillarity and condensation because it prevents warm air from reaching the cool concrete."
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/green-basics/green-enclo...
See also the following link where they talk about typical temperature gradients (instead of "im warmen Bereich") several times:
http://www.modernsteel.com/Uploads/Issues/March_2012/032012_...
See also here about how to calculate different values (R-value and the like):
http://www.lowimpact.org/factsheet_insulation.html
"WDVS bieten einen ausgezeichneten Witterungsschutz. Sie erfüllen die Anforderungen an die höchste Schlagregenbeanspruchungsgruppe. Aber nicht nur die äußere Feuchtigkeit spielt eine Rolle. Die raumseitige Luftfeuchtigkeit kann bei unzureichend gedämmten Wänden kondensieren und Schäden verursachen.
Gesundheitsgefährdende Pilz- und Schimmelbildungen sind die Folge. Dem beugen WDVS u.a. dadurch vor, dass die Wand im warmen Bereich verbleibt und der Temperaturunterschied zwischen Innenraumluft und raumseitiger Wandoberfläche deutlich reduziert wird."
http://www.heizkosten-einsparen.de/~run/views/verarbeiter/wd...
You could think of both temperature and area at first. However, thinking about the exterior wall and "verbleibt" separated from the temperature explanation, I favor "area" over "temperature range" here.
"Grundsätzlich erhöht sich infolge der Dämmung die Temperatur der Außenwände. Feuchtigkeit kondensiert grundsätzlich an der kältesten Stelle. Die Außenwände werden somit durch die Außendämmung geschützt. Die Wände befinden sich im warmen Bereich und ein “kältester Punkt” so wie auf dem Foto ist nicht mehr vorhanden. Aufgrund dieser höheren Wandoberflächentemperaturen kann somit aus bauphysikalischer Sicht die Feuchtigkeit aus der (feuchten) Raumluft deutlich schlechter kondensieren, die Wand ist damit insgesamt trockener. Je trockener die Wandoberfläche, um so unwahrscheinlicher ist wiederum die Gefahr der Schimmelpilzbildung."
http://www.wir-hausbesitzer.de/blog/bauphysik/dammung/daemmw...
Hard to say here but we can discern that "kältester Punkt" means the dew point here (the coldest point of the wall at which the temperature difference is so high that the water condenses).
See also:
"Noch dringlicher als bei monolithischen Mauern ist die thermische Entkoppelung zu Fundament bzw. Keller bei Mauerwerk mit Wärmedämmverbundsystemen (WDVS). Die Wärmebrücke beim Mauerwerk mit WDVS ist noch ausgeprägter, weil die Leitfähigkeit schwerer Hochlochziegel oder Betonsteine 2-5mal so hoch ist wie bei porosierten Leichtziegeln, Porenbetonsteinen oder Blähtonsteinen. Durch die außen liegende Dämmung liegt praktisch der ganze Wandquerschnitt im warmen Bereich, somit nimmt im Unterschied zum vorigen Beispiel der Wärmefluß zur Mauersohle nach außen hin kaum ab."
http://www.bauweise.net/grundlagen/daemmung/daemmung03.htm
"Isothermenverlauf eines nachträglich gedämmten Außenwandabschnitts. Das Mauerwerk liegt komplett im warmen Bereich und auf Grund der Innenoberflächentemperaturen besteht keine Schimmelgefahr."
https://www.kfw.de/PDF/Download-Center/Förderprogramme-(Inla...
The point of the last two links is: Because of the exterior wall insulation, the walls are almost as warm as the interior (at most, a difference of a few degrees Celsius).
The walls themselves are part of the thermal envelope (which is why you could say the heat stays within the thermal envelope but not inside):
"What's a thermal envelope? No, it's not a steaming hot letter you get from a bill collector.
A new home typically delivers the best performance – and comfort—when it's designed for a tight thermal envelope from the ground up."
http://www.proudgreenhome.com/articles/how-to-build-an-energ...
The envelope should show thermal continuity:
"The issues which arise are similar to those with intermediate floors or with staircases. With a masonry structure, insulation in a cavity, or exterior insulation, both deliver thermal continuity. This is because the insulation runs uninterrupted either externally or in the cavity and outside the junction of the walls."
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/...
The continuity is achieved by wall insulation with a good R-value (or U-value) and few thermal bridges:
"However, this nominally takes into account the insulating value of the material itself. The whole wall can be compromised due to thermal bridging and air leakage, which can decrease the actual R-value by as much as 50 percent or more in steel-framed walls and 24 percent or more in wood-framed walls.
Adding thicker cavity insulation does little when trying to improve the thermal efficiency of the wall, as it does not mitigate thermal bridging or air leakage."
http://www.dryvit.com/iecc/energyloss/index.html
And:
"The insulation will also increase the temperature of the internal surface of the wall, making it less likely that you will get condensation problems on your walls."
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Insulation/Solid-wall-in...
Example for the dew point:
"If the interior of the building is kept at 70°F and 35% relative humidity, we can use the psychrometric chart to determine the dew point. On the bottom of the chart, find 70°F. Follow the vertical line up from 70°F at the base until you intersect a curved line corresponding to 35% relative humidity. From that intersection point, follow a horizontal line to the left side of the chart, until the horizontal line intersects the curved line indicating 100% relative humidity. You can read the dew point temperature along that curved line; it’s about 40°F. You just determined the dew point for 70°F air at 35% relative humidity.
Your 28°F sheathing is below the dew point, which means that as long as these conditions continue, the sheathing is likely to accumulate moisture.
If, on the other hand, the interior of the building is kept at 65°F and 20% relative humidity, the psychrometric chart tells us that the dew point is 24°F. So our 28°F sheathing is above the dew point — as long as the interior conditions don’t change."
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/are-d...
Thus, the better the thermal performance of the wall, the more water the air (and the wall) can retain, which helps to eliminate any mold problems:
"Insulating the exterior of a foundation can block moisture and keep the concrete warm. A warm inside surface means that humidity won't condense into liquid and can cause mold growth. Rigid foam is a good choice under slabs. Rigid or spray foam installed inside the foundation walls stops capillarity and condensation because it prevents warm air from reaching the cool concrete."
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/green-basics/green-enclo...
See also the following link where they talk about typical temperature gradients (instead of "im warmen Bereich") several times:
http://www.modernsteel.com/Uploads/Issues/March_2012/032012_...
See also here about how to calculate different values (R-value and the like):
http://www.lowimpact.org/factsheet_insulation.html
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Coqueiro
: Please post it as an answer
2 days 52 mins
|
|
Yes, thank you! I've done it!
|
Discussion
In addition: If you have an A/C in your house to keep the house cool, the exterior wall insulation will keep the walls cold, so that there is no condensation either.
This is also a frequent problem in basements and cellars, especially if they're not entirely underground: The basement is cold but outside temperatures are high, which will have the water condensate inside the wall and produce mold. Or did I misunderstand something?
Thus, the choice would be between:
- the walls themselves are always warm
- temperatures inside the walls are always above the dew-point
- the walls are always close to room temperature
Considering my A/C example, I'd prefer the last suggestion. I wouldn't use "interior" because that could also mean interior of the wall -> the side of the wall facing the room (same problem with "inside" if not used as a preposition, apparently - just looked for some examples).
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/where-insulate-home
Also nice (but a lot of material):
http://www.wbdg.org/design/env_wall.php
Don't think you would use "warm state" here. Haven't seen it once in any of the papers. Either just "warm(er)", "close to room temperature", "greatly reduced heat losses", or the like. I couldn't find any standardized expression, and I believe there is none, really.
"warm" is relative...If you calculate based on a 20 C° room temperature, the exterior wall should be between 16 and 19°. Basically, you keep the temperature of the exterior wall close to room temperature to mitigate any thermal bridges and prevent any dew points.
At least to some people, 16° is horribly cold :)
@Coqueiro
I think your suggestion is quite good. Maybe you can have a look at the reference entry I'll post soon and then we could talk about it again if you like.
Best wishes