Lancashireman Sep 23, 2016:

archtrans Thank you once again for reminding us that you are AN ARCHITECT. Without such reminders, your contributions on this site might not receive the consideration they are due.

Björn Vrooman Sep 23, 2016:

@archtrans
"as an architect, not my recommendation"
The German examples I've found mostly relate to some means of transportation (cars, aircrafts) or computer technology. This means that someone could have as well applied a technical term to describe something the word is usually not used for. Ramey may remember the discussion about "redundant capabilities" a while ago. It sounds like an odd term to use - but not in IT or engine development, where it is understood as "additional capabilities in case of an emergency."

There is one architect example I could find, also from a patent (about noise reduction measures):
"Zur Erzielung dieses Effekts wurden bereits die unterschiedlichsten Systeme zum Einsatz gebracht, welche einerseits meist relativ hochbauend sind und andererseits aus den verschiedensten Materialien gefertigt sind, um sowohl einen ausreichenden Lärmschutz zur Verfügung zu stellen als auch ästhetischen Anforderungen zu genügen."
https://www.google.com/patents/DE202012008924U1?cl=de

"vertical" wouldn't go over well, e.g., since the wall to keep noise levels low is still pretty wide. It's just tall too; that's why it's "hochbauend."

PS: For images, see patent link below.

Björn Vrooman Sep 23, 2016:

Good afternoon, all @John
I understand. If you scroll back down to the triple 21 (September 21 at 21:21), you'll see the references posted. I'll add it and will even throw in a pyramid example for good measure.

archtrans Sep 23, 2016:

OK, it's your choice... but as an architect, not my recommendation. :)

Michael Martin, MA Sep 23, 2016:

Built for height was Björn's suggestion..

archtrans Sep 22, 2016:

Same to you - have a good evening! It is quite a discussion, indeed!

The "welches" phrase construction isn't very elegant, to be sure. I haven't done many patents but they do seem to have a tendency to be excessively wordy and awkward in any language. Lawyers...

No offense, but I don't find "built for height" particularly meaningful, so I wouldn't use it myself. It's too vague. In a way it's also redundant, as every structure humans (or even animals, lol) enter and use must be built for height, to some degree. It doesn't get across the idea of verticality in terms of proportion.

I'd love to see some images of this thing. Anyhow - this is my last entry so best wishes to everybody!

John Speese (asker) Sep 22, 2016:

I went with "built for height". I would like to award the points to whomever suggested that answer first (I've long since lost track, but I think it was Michael Martin) if that person would contact me or submit it as an answer for grading.

Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:

PS If you need to keep the grammatical structure, I'm still wondering what's wrong with something such as "built for height" - it even mimics the German phrase: built = past participle / for height = adverbial phrase about purpose

PS2:
Of course, good evening wishes also to our other two discussion peers who may be wondering when the barrage of messages will finally stop.

Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:

I think it get's a bit complicated in German here. Anything ending in "-end" will still be an adjective - even if it is used adverbially; here, it is an adjective used adverbially in a verb-associated phrase ("prädikativ") within a relative clause pertaining to an adverbial phrase ("innerhalb...") in a subordinate clause. Ugh.

I don't like the German either: "ausgestaltet ist...angeordnet ist."

It'd be better to rephrase and say:
"In verfahrensgemaesser Ausgestaltung ist angegeben, dass innerhalb das HOCHBAUEND AUSGESTALTETEN Gewaechshauses ein statisches turmfoermiges Zentralelement angeordnet ist"

Now the whole thing is used "attributiv," while the adjective is still used as an adverb (even if it isn't one as per word types).

By the way, there's a grammar mistake in the original: It should be "Gewächshauses"; whether "hochbauend" comes before or after is irrelevant in this case.

Have a good evening, both of you. I think 30+ entries do deserve some asker feedback.

archtrans Sep 22, 2016:

Stimmt genau present participle in an adjectival phrase, but as you know, the present participle can be an adverb as well.
"Unlike its English equivalent, the present participle in German is used almost exclusively as an adjective or adverb."
http://german.about.com/library/bladj_particip01.htm

I was trying to get at this, really.

Present Participles as Adverbs
Examples of present participles used as ADVERBS:
"Sie sahen einander grinsend an."
http://german.about.com/library/bladj_particip03.htm

A greenhouse was or is "built tall"?

John's probably long since finished his translation, lol.

archtrans Sep 22, 2016:

Stimmt genau present participle in an adjectival phrase, but as you know, the present participle can be an adverb as well.
"Unlike its English equivalent, the present participle in German is used almost exclusively as an adjective or adverb."
http://german.about.com/library/bladj_particip01.htm

Present Participles as Adverbs
Examples of present participles used as ADVERBS.
...
"Sie sahen einander grinsend an."

I was trying to get at this, really. A greenhouse was or is "built tall".

John's probably long since done with his translation, lol.

archtrans Sep 22, 2016:

Stimmt genau present participle in an adjectival phrase, but as you know, the present participle can be an adverb as well.
"Unlike its English equivalent, the present participle in German is used almost exclusively as an adjective or adverb."
http://german.about.com/library/bladj_particip01.htm

Present Participles as Adverbs
Examples of present participles used as ADVERBS.
...
"Sie sahen einander grinsend an."

I was trying to get at this, really. A greenhouse was or is "built tall".

John's probably long since done with his translation, lol.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

Lieber Björn Deine Erklärung ist eingehend präzise.

Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:

"Next question - are they understood in German as adjectives used as adverbs?"

hochaufbauend = present participle
gestaltet = past participle

In German: Partizip I and Partizip II
http://mein-deutschbuch.de/partizipien-als-adjektive.html

This is a so-called "prädikativ verwendete Adjektphrase," specifically a "Partizipialphrase":
http://hypermedia.ids-mannheim.de/call/public/gruwi.ansicht?...

One of their examples:
"Der Baum ist leuchtend grün."

This sentence may not have a past participle, but it shows the same present participle in "leuchtend," describing "grün" in more detail.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

hi Archtrans Pyramidally is a word I would personally avoid. But I did find something quite nice:
statuesque. Hochbauend is used as an adjective for designed (although I believe constructed is more appropriate).

archtrans Sep 22, 2016:

Björn Yes, this does seem related to vertical farming. Perhaps the reason for the repetition of hochbauend is simply to emphasize verticality, then, since greenhouses have traditionally been horizontal.

As the text uses parallel construction of "ausgestaltet" (linguistically, not the patent), eg. "Dieses System ist dabei wie hier bspw pyramidal ausgestaltet," and "dass innerhalb das Gewaechshaus, welches HOCHBAUEND AUSGESTALTET ist"

perhaps the translation ought to treat them that way, ideally.

Next question - are they understood in German as adjectives used as adverbs? Or more to the point, which should they be in English?

Noting that "pyramidally" does turn up in dictionaries, at least here: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pyramidally
and that "design" is sometimes the best translation for "bau" in various forms and contexts,

perhaps one could opt for either "designed vertically" and "designed pyramidally" or "vertically designed" and "pyramidally designed".

Neither of which is exactly concisely formulated, but they get the point across, I would say.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

Yes, Björn The other structure doesn't have to be pyramidal, but the greenhouse does - which is clarified by the author. that is a good argument for using pyramidal for the greenhouse, and possibly with a modifying "tall, high, or upthrusting"

Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:

@archtrans I can answer your question, though ("I can't think why it's hochbauEND"):

It's because "hochbauend" describes in more detail how something is "gestaltet" (designed). You cannot say "hoch gestaltet" in German, IMO, which is why you need to add something after "hoch."

In contrast to hochbauend, "gestaltet" is a participle and not a process. So "built for height" or "tall by design" is the more literal translation.

I suppose I could subscribe to Ramey's second option of "tall," which you had already suggested. Regarding practicality, the issue is that two parts of the patent shouldn't sound identical.

Upon further consideration, I think the author uses "hoch" to refer to this here:
"Dies löst auf effiziente Weise das Problem, dass es bei Gewächshochhäusern oben extrem heiss ist, und unten im lichtarmen Bereich extrem kalt ist."

See:
https://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/article2000995/Gewaechshaeu...

These are actual skycrapers - their built for height. It's called "vertical farming":
http://www.dlr.de/dlr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10212/332_re...

That needs to be considered when talking about context, IMO.

Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:

"to complete the document as well as provide a professional translation"
Not going to read too much into that one. I'll apologize to you and archtrans for my piecemeal delivery, but I'm too focused on other things right now.

However, this statement is proved wrong by the patent author himself:
"Pyramidal applies SOLELY to the greenhouse"

He said about the tower:
"Dies muss aber nicht pyramidal sein, sondern kann auch ein gerader Turm"

This means that the tower can - but doesn't have to - have a pyramid shape, i.e., both are hochbauend, but one must be a pyramid and doesn't need to be. I'm a bit confused about this sentence: "Dieses System ist dabei wie hier bspw pyramidal ausgestaltet, so dass eine optimale lichteinwirkende Oberfläche für die besagte Photosynthese entsteht." I'm not sure anymore what is "pyramid-shaped" here and the "bspw" indicates that this is only one option among many. That's why I said John better say something.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

Pyramidal applies SOLELY to the greenhouse, as that was the original question with context. As to the other usages of hochbauen, I would also use a different term. IF the issues are light as opposed to height, that can easily be clarified - to provide extensive lighting vs. a tall perpendicular structure.
I think we're talking about the same thing, but I'm coming from a practical angle in order to complete the document as well as provide a professional translation. Enjoy the sunshine.

Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:

Why I'm unsure A) As shown by the examples below, "hochbauend" is not used as a synonym for "pyramidal."

B) The author used "pyramidal" throughout the text as well, so why would he abstain from it here? This isn't a novel or a literary masterpiece where you may need to use different words to not sound repetitive and dull; here, it's about describing the invention in detail.

C) Likewise, I don't see the value of having no. 17 in the patent be repeated almost word for word in no. 31. Additionally, "pyramidal" and "hochbauend" are used in association with different attributes (light source vs. structural stability). If you replaced all "hochbauend" by "pyramidal," the author's entire line of reasoning may fall apart ("Aufwind" because of "barometrischer Höhenunterschied").

Maybe we're just not on the same page here, but that's OK. I think it'd be time for John to chime in. While the discussions are typically very enlightening and fun, I don't think we're going to get any further without some feedback.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

high-reaching/upthrusting Perhaps a simple 'tall' doesn't do it, but we ARE translating here. Both high-reaching and upthrusting would be the precise translation, but utterly absurd in such a context.

Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:

@archtrans I don't doubt your expertise in construction, but this term doesn't seem to be exclusive to the building industry. Yes, the opposite is "tiefbauend," but both terms are used in a variety of fields:

"Die 737 ist tiefbauend ausgelegt – bereits jetzt muss Boeing asymetrische Triebwerke unter den Tragflächen montieren."
http://www.aero.de/news-16249/Airbus.html

"Recht kompakte Bauweise, aber wiederum sehr hochbauend." [PCs]
https://www.computerbase.de/bildstrecke/22421/20/

"diverse Glasgefässe hochbauend und flach
diverse Porzellangefässe hochbauend und flach"
http://www.eventloft.ch/eventservice-event-inside-wetzikon-z...

"Hochbauend wie Vans nun mal sind, dürfen keine Verbrauchsrekorde erwartet werden, aber 8,8 Liter pro 100 km gehen in Ordnung."
http://www.autoplenum.de/auto/tests/ford-galaxy-siebensitzer...

The emphasis is on height. I'm not sure that a simple "tall" or "low" would suffice, e.g., the aircraft still isn't touching the ground or something. But maybe it works.

In essence, as already pointed to below, hochbauend = in die Höhe strebend (or bauend). That's it.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

How can you be unsure when there are illustrations and pictures?

Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:

@Ramey You could. I used to work in a patent department and I don't feel comfortable rewriting claims this way (which is why I'd advise anyone unsure about a meaning to just ask the original author.)

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

Yes, but as the greenhouse is ALWAYS pyramidal, the translation could use this term repetitively, differentiating from the tower, which is a tall perpendicular tower or structure.

Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:

Another hochbauend:
"Dabei ist das Gewächshaus hochbauend, und mit einem statischen Zentralelement versehen, über welches eine etagenweise Anordnung der Pflanzungsetagen statisch ausgesteift ist"

Used for both:
"Dass das statische Zentralelement sowie das Gewächshaus hochbauend ist hat die Wirkung, dass sowohl innerhalb des rohrförmigen Zentralelementes als auch an seiner Außenoberfläche, die innerhalb des Gewächshauses liegt, ein durch sowohl den barometrischen Höhenunterschied als auch durch die Zuführung thermischer Abwärmeenergie im Bodenbereich Aufwind erzeugt wird, der zu einer thermischen Durchmischung der CO2-reichen zugeführten Abluft der im Zentralelement integrierten Anlage im Gewächshaus dient."

And one pyramidal:
"Dieses System ist dabei wie hier bspw pyramidal ausgestaltet, so dass eine optimale lichteinwirkende Oberfläche für die besagte Photosynthese entsteht. "

Do you see the difference? The issue is that because of the height (hochbauend), "Statik" and "barometrischer Höhenunterschied" come into play. Because of "pyramidal," light will get in easier.

The greenhouse is always a pyramid. The tower need not be, because: different purpose.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

Which means there are two options for building the greenhouse? Or that pyramidal is appropriate in both cases (for the greenhouse)?

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

For HEAVEN's sake! It's just a TALL structure. And yes it does make sense to use different terms for the same thing, as the greenhouse IS pyramidal - it could be a TALL pyramid - and the tower is not.

Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:

It's all about context Here, it's no. 17 on the left side:
"In weiterer verfahrensgemäßer Ausgestaltung ist angegeben, dass innerhalb des Gewächshauses, welches hochbauend ausgestaltet ist, ein statisches turmförmiges Zentralelement angeordnet ist, durch welches das Gewächshaus nicht nur statisch belastbarer wird, sondern innerhalb des Gewächshauses eine selbsttätige durch Thermik betriebene Luftumwälzung stattfindet."
http://www.google.de/patents/DE102009008093B4?cl=de&hl=it

Here is "pyramidal" from the same document:
"In weiterer Ausgestaltung ist angegeben, dass das Gewächshaus pyramidal ausgestaltet ist, und das Zentralelement im Zentrum angeordnet ist und bis unter die Spitze der Pyramide oder bis kurz davor reicht."

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

There's no harm in repeating oneself if there is great difficulty translating a term.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

So which context do we use? Yours or the askers? Here is: das Gewaechshaus, welches HOCHBAUEND AUSGESTALTET ist. THIS question, you dig? So why are we answering questions that have yet to be posed?
For the OTHER HOCHBAUEND - turn it around: Is not necessarily pyramidal, but CAN be a perpendicular tower....

Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:

@Ramey ?!?

As said below

1) The text already includes several instances of "pyramidal," so you're just going to repeat yourself for no reason.
2) Don't know what you mean by "THIS context." The patent I quoted is John's source document, AFAIK. And since John needs "hochbauend" for both components, it doesn't make any sense to me to use different words for the same thing.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 22, 2016:

Look again.... ..the term REFERS to the greenhouse, Björn. We're dealing with the context HERE, so this statement: Since both need to be "hochbauend," but one of these components does not need to be "pyramidal," you won't be able to use "pyramidal" here for "hochbauend." Does not apply to THIS context. Saavy?

archtrans Sep 22, 2016:

Hochbau vs. Tiefbau I'm going to take a whack at this... in German building codes and permitting processes, all construction is divided into Hochbau & Tiefbau (also fliegende Bauen, temporary buildings). Hochbau is anything permanent built above ground; Tiefbau encompasses structural design, foundations, civil engineering projects like road construction, etc. Municipalities have a Hochbauabteilung and a Tiefbauabteilung that do permitting and often in-house municipal projects. So I am wondering if "hochbauend ausgestaltet" may relate to this meaning of Hochbau. I can't think why it's hochbauEND, though; likenever came across it before either. So I don't know if that helps.

On the other hand, i wonder if "hochbauend ausgestaltet" is just a fancy way to say "tall". Fits. Heard countless lectures by architects as a student/grad/instructor, translated a fair bit as well; I know it's fairly common for architects and structural engineers in both languages (though Germans are worse, sorry!) to make up words. It's kind of part of the mystique, a privilege - design extends to everything, after all! ;) Makes translating a fun challenge. When in doubt, I ALWAYS look at the images. It's the only way to be sure.

Björn Vrooman Sep 21, 2016:

To clarify Now that may mean that the central component doesn't have to have a pyramidal structure, but the Gewächshaus does. However, there is this part:
"Dass das statische Zentralelement sowie das Gewächshaus hochbauend ist hat die Wirkung"

Since both need to be "hochbauend," but one of these components does not need to be "pyramidal," you won't be able to use "pyramidal" here for "hochbauend."

Björn Vrooman Sep 21, 2016:

@Richard / Re: your comment to Michael I don't think it works here, though. See the rest of the patent text.
hochbauend:
"Ein weiterer Doppelnutzen ist, wie oben bereits beschrieben, die statische Ausstützung eines hochbauenden Gewächshauses, bei welchem hohe Gewichtskräfte durch die Vielzahl der Wasserwannen und der Pflanzenmassen/Biomassen statisch abzufangen sind, und andererseits innerhalb dieses Turmes der Raum zur Integration einer Produktionsanlage in allen beschriebenen Beispielen dient."

pyramidal:
"In weiterer Ausgestaltung ist angegeben, dass das Gewächshaus pyramidal ausgestaltet ist, und das Zentralelement im Zentrum angeordnet ist und bis unter die Spitze der Pyramide oder bis kurz davor reicht."

And now comes the difficult part:
"4 zeigt eine perspektivische Ansicht, bei welcher sichtbar wird, dass das turmfömige statische Zentralelement 15, welches zugleich als aufwindkraftbetriebene Umwälzpumpe für Wärme und CO2 dient, zentral im pyramidalen Gewächshaus 13 steht. Dies muss aber nicht pyramidal sein, sondern kann auch ein gerader Turm mit gleichförmig quadratischem, dreieckigem, oder runden Querschnitt sein."

As they said at one of the links: built for height instead of length.

Michael Martin, MA Sep 21, 2016:

Built for height would work well, IMO. I initially thought of 'built to add height" but that would have meant it was built for the sole purpose of adding height, so this is better..!

Björn Vrooman Sep 21, 2016:

What about... ..."built for height"?

"Pallet racking is built for height and volume."
http://blog.hicube.com/blog/topic/pallet-racking

"The gabled home was built for height to maximize views of the lake"
http://inhabitat.com/lakeside-private-house-bellmund-has-a-h...

"The French built for height and the English for length. French cathedrals got taller and taller, culminating at Beauvais, where the interior vault from floor to ceiling is nearly 160 feet."
http://shortbookreviews.com/modern-non-fiction-english-decor...

"A 'giga coaster' is a complete-circuit roller coaster with no inverted hills, which is built for height and speed."
http://www.wistv.com/story/26337958/carowinds-to-add-worlds-...

Similar to what I said in response to Michael: I think hochbauend = in die Höhe strebend is a more fitting explanation than my attempts below. I'm sure someone can come up with an even better solution (since "built" isn't a process).

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 21, 2016:

@Richard Yes you can, high-ceilinged rooms in Victorian architecture.

Björn Vrooman Sep 21, 2016:

PS hochbauend = in die Höhe bauend (bauend tells you it's a process)

Almost like the Tower of Babel.

Björn Vrooman Sep 21, 2016:

Hilarious This patent translation here:
"Means for the biological conversion of CO 2 in carbon and oxygen, for carrying out the method according to any one of claims 1 to 6, characterized in that the greenhouse ( 13 ) Hochbauend, and with a static central element ( 15 ) Is provided via which a floor by floor arrangement of planting floors ( 16 ) Statically supported and the greenhouse is stiffened so, the inner cavity formed as this column static central element ( 15 )"
http://www.google.it/patents/DE102009008093A1?cl=en&hl=it

I.e., Google doesn't know the word either. But I tink Ramey and Stephen are correct, although I'd take a second look at "turmfoermiges Zentralelement." It could mean that the building is "nach oben verjüngend" - it's high and getting higher until it ends in a tip.

Actually, the patent I quoted IS the source of the question asked:
http://www.google.de/patents/DE102009008093B4?cl=de&hl=it

See the pictures there, it looks like a pyramid and seems to confirm what I said above ("nach oben verjüngend"). Alternative: "eher in die Höhe denn in die Breite."

Richard Stephen Sep 21, 2016:

@ Ramey Rieger Yes, my thinking as well. Perhaps "with high-ceiling design" or just "high ceilinged" (Can you make a verb out of 'ceiling'?)

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 21, 2016:

Comprising high ceilings I would think

Richard Stephen Sep 21, 2016:

Definition of 'high-rise' (of a building) having a comparatively large number of stories and equipped with elevators:
a high-rise apartment house.

I doubt your green house comprises 'a comparatively large number of stories'.