This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
sie haben zum Stichtag keine offenen Posten festgestellt
Mitnahme
Jul 10, 2017 14:46
6 yrs ago
1 viewer *
German term

Davidstern mit Büchern

Non-PRO German to English Social Sciences History
"Denn der seit der Nachkriegszeit in New York lebende Ries hat beide Städte, Berlin und New York, mit den Augen eines
immer wachen Fotografen gesehen und stellt seine Gedanken zu den alten Hochhäusern in New York und den neuen in Berlin, in einen kritischen Zusammenhang. Wenn Ries vor dem *„Davidstern mit Büchern"* auf der Putlitzbrücke steht, einem kleinen Mahnmal über den Schienen, auf denen die Züge von Berlin nach Auschwitz rollten, wird die Erinnerung von Ries an seine Schulzeit wieder lebendig und daran, dass er eigentlich Pianist werden wollte, aber aufgrund der rzwungenen Emigration nicht mehr werden konnte..."

Alluding to an historical marker in Berlin, but can't seem to get my head around what is meant here.
TIA for your help.
Proposed translations (English)
4 Star of David with Books
References
A picture of what the text is referring to
Change log

Jul 11, 2017 18:42: writeaway changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (3): philgoddard, Lancashireman, writeaway

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:

An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)

A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).

Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.

When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.

* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.

Discussion

Jonathan MacKerron (asker) Jul 13, 2017:
In retrospect the author is not claiming that the sculpture is meant to denote books, but that he perceives it as such - hence the quotation marks.
Eleanore Strauss Jul 12, 2017:
Thank you Orla Thank you very much for making the effort to explain this in detail. It is really helpful. I will make an effort to go see this the next time I'm in Berlin.
I did not have time to do more research - just proposed a 'translation'. And as per your description it is indeed a work of art.
oa_xxx (X) Jul 12, 2017:
No room for subjective interpretation I would advise you to tell the author if you can that these are not meant to be books at all, just a broken staircase, (and no, not a staircase of books) so 'mit Büchern' is completely wrong: 'Dahinter deutet das Denkmal Treppenstufen an, die in Richtung Himmel steigen. Auf einer ergänzenden Tafel stehen die Sätze: "Stufen die keine Stufen mehr sind – Eine Treppe, die keine Treppe mehr ist – Abgebrochen – Symbol des Weges, der kein Weg mehr war. Für die, die über Rampen, Gleise, Stufen und Treppen diesen letzten Weg gehen mussten…"' If you can't tell the author, I would stick to the literal translation and add a note that the source text is wrong. Completely disagree with all the 'disagrees' - except any objections to 'books' and their symbolism - and especially disagree with the suggestion of translating it as Jewish or Holocaust Memorial (at the very least without capitals) - the source text explains exactly what it is in the rest of the sentence, no need to explain it twice. It was the author's choice to describe it as such - in quotation marks - rather than using the official German title.
Jonathan MacKerron (asker) Jul 10, 2017:
Thanks to all for your input. At least now I know what I'm dealing with.
Eleanore Strauss Jul 10, 2017:
@writeaway Not heavenly... heaven... just an allusion to death... as I said, heaven as the destination. Not heavenly at all.. not to be taken literally!
writeaway Jul 10, 2017:
Books were burned (went up in smoke) before the people. Nothing particularly heavenly about it imo.
Eleanore Strauss Jul 10, 2017:
stairway of books nice idea... stairway to heaven in a very different vein
writeaway Jul 10, 2017:
I agree it should read a Berlin Holocaust Memorial.
Eleanore Strauss Jul 10, 2017:
@writeaway This is not Berlin's Holocaust Memorial! The biggest is the one with the various stones in different sizes .. and that is seen as THE Holocaust memorial. As per my explanation, this is just one of many. Berlin has done an enormous, great job of these "Mahnmale".
Ramey Rieger (X) Jul 10, 2017:
a stairway of books perhaps
Jonathan MacKerron (asker) Jul 10, 2017:
perhaps something like "standing on the Putlitz Bridge before the Deportation Memorial depicting a Star of David and (what appears to be?) a pile of books"
writeaway Jul 10, 2017:
Berlin's Holocaust Memorial on/at the Putlitz Bridge makes it clear
Eleanore Strauss Jul 10, 2017:
Thanks Ramey... appreciate the input.
Ramey Rieger (X) Jul 10, 2017:
Hi Elli! Yes, just offering some options.
Eleanore Strauss Jul 10, 2017:
@Ramey Agreed, but the asker was looking for a translation of the text as such.
Ramey Rieger (X) Jul 10, 2017:
The German name is Deportationmahnmal and simply Jewish Memorial in English. Why not Star of David Memorial - where it is and what it represents is depicted in the continuing text.
Susanne Schiewe Jul 10, 2017:
Agree with Lancashireman
Jonathan MacKerron (asker) Jul 10, 2017:
I saw the photo but couldn't 'see' the books.
Also thought it might refer to him as a young boy, who might have worn a Star of David and crossed that very bridge carrying books on his way to school.
Lancashireman Jul 10, 2017:
According to Wikipedia, it's supposed to represent a staircase, but it certainly looks like a pile of books falling over to me.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportationsmahnmal_Putlitzbrü...
Eleanore Strauss Jul 10, 2017:
What's the problem It's a memorial site, one of many in Berlin. Depicts a Star of David with books. If you want to see what it looks like, here's a link. The symbolism is pretty clear.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportationsmahnmal_Putlitzbrü...

Proposed translations

9 mins
Selected

Star of David with Books

This refers to one of many large and small memorial sites erected in Berlin.
Here the Wikipedia explanation

The symbolism is quite clear... the star of David and the people of the book who were deported on the trains running below the bridge.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 mins (2017-07-10 15:01:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It may be a staircase, but as always in such works of art, interpretation is open to the viewer. I actually know and have seen many of the monuments in Berlin. Was not aware of this one. But its language is quite clear. Embellishment may be necessary, i.e. short background explanation.
Example sentence:

The Start of David with Books, a memorial to those who perished here.

Reference:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportationsmahnmal_Putlitzbr%C3%BCcke

Note from asker:
It is perhaps clear to those who are familiar with this specific monument, but would not be to others who are hearing about it for the first time. I may have to embelish a bit to make it easily understandable.
Thanks Elli
Peer comment(s):
disagree writeaway : I posted my reference before anyone posted in the discussion box. / A star of David with books doesn't convey what it is. And it certainly isn't meant to represent a stairway to heaven/paradise. Don't agree at all with your ideas on the 'symbolism'.
2 mins
Thanks, but I posted a comment in the discussion box the minute this popped up on my screen. That was not mean as explaining symbolism. Just a spontaneous thought. Not heaven as paradise... just a stairway to wherever death leads.
agree philgoddard
27 mins
Thank you!
agree Steffen Walter
54 mins
Thank you Steffen!
agree Andrea Garfield-Barkworth
6 hrs
Thank you Andrea!
disagree Lancashireman : with Books or with books? // Changed from neutral to disagree. 1) It is not an artwork; 2) This is not the 'name' of the memorial; 3) Your link to 'People of the Book' is pure speculation. // Answerer changed previous reply. Comment stands.
9 hrs
It is an artwork in the right sense - a form of expression of ideas or symbols. These are open to interpretation. You call it speculation. Used the term to explain capitalization.
disagree Edith Kelly : It means nothing to a non-German speaker and also nothing to most German speakers. It's - as writeaway says - Berlin Jewish Memorial on the Putlitz Bridge
13 hrs
It was an idea for translation. Not Jewish Memorial - check references. If anything Deportation Memorial.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks for your help."

Reference comments

5 mins
Reference:

A picture of what the text is referring to

Stock Photo - Germany Berlin Jewish Memorial on the Putlitz Bridge

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-germany-berlin-jewish-memor...
Note from asker:
OK, from this angle I sort of get the books thing - thanks.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree philgoddard
31 mins
agree Edith Kelly
13 hrs
agree Lancashireman : Davidstern mit Büchern = Star of David with Books? Duh, hard to see how this one qualifies as PRO.
1 day 3 hrs
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search