| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Why are fantasy world accents British?
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| | Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Hebrew to English
I'm not sure there's any evidence currently about which modern day accent most resembles Middle English phonology....not that it matters as it's getting a bit off-topic, but I think it's still quite a leap to claim "the knight might feel quite at home on the range" just because some (not all) English accents lack rhoticity.
In fact:
...[because of rhoticity]....
"Do we therefore conclude that American English is closer to Old English? I think that this would be ju... See more I'm not sure there's any evidence currently about which modern day accent most resembles Middle English phonology....not that it matters as it's getting a bit off-topic, but I think it's still quite a leap to claim "the knight might feel quite at home on the range" just because some (not all) English accents lack rhoticity.
In fact:
...[because of rhoticity]....
"Do we therefore conclude that American English is closer to Old English? I think that this would be jumping the gun.
For many Americans "cot" and "caught" are homophones for others "bother" and "father" have the same first vowel. Many Americans have both mergers. American English is lacking a vowel that British English (at least in general) retains.
There are some in England who maintain the distinction between "tow" and "toe" and between "pain" and "pane" which existed in Middle English.
Yod-dropping is generally more prevalent in US English. This is the process that makes pairs like "new" and "gnu", "do" and "due", "tune" and "toon" sound the same. However there are dialects in England where yod-dropping is far more extensive than it generally is in American English.
This is merely scratching the surface but I hope it gives a feeling for the complexity of the subject. Of course, we're only talking about accent too, there is also such things as spelling, vocab, grammar, etc. to consider."
Simon hit the nail on the head....even on an imaginary landmass - if you give the population a medieval culture it is highly incongruous to give the population an accent associated with a modern culture less than 300 years old (and which didn't even exist in the middle ages - England did). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 05:05
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | Scientists have their ways... | Apr 6, 2012 |
Quite interesting articles on the subject:
When did Americans Stop “Talking British?”
"That being said, it’s clear to me that British English has seen at least as much of a change than American English. So the more pertinent question is, when did Britons stop talking like Americans?"
http://dialectblog.com/2011/06/13/americans-talking-britis/
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Hebrew to English
| Not convinced by that blog, sorry. | Apr 6, 2012 |
It's not exactly a peer-reviewed journal, is it?
You can also tell it's been written by someone not familiar with the intricacies of English accents as they stand today. There's an insinuation that British English rural dialects are all but extinct and we all speak urban dialects. Not true.
I also get worried about academic validity when I'm reading something and I stumble upon dodgy English "at least as much of a change than American English".?? Than?
...I... See more It's not exactly a peer-reviewed journal, is it?
You can also tell it's been written by someone not familiar with the intricacies of English accents as they stand today. There's an insinuation that British English rural dialects are all but extinct and we all speak urban dialects. Not true.
I also get worried about academic validity when I'm reading something and I stumble upon dodgy English "at least as much of a change than American English".?? Than?
...I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
[Edited at 2012-04-06 21:38 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Simon Bruni
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Member (2009)
Spanish to English
| The Westcountry accent | Apr 7, 2012 |
Jabberwock wrote:
As I understand it, scholars believe that American English changed in pronounciation much less than British English (because change, in general, spreads from "the center"). Just take the most distingushing element of the two, i.e. rhoticity - Americans didn't acquire it, it's the British who lost it...
Rhoticity is alive and kicking in England. It is a still a feature of Westcountry English, and not just rural areas but also Bristol, Gloucester, Plymouth and my home town Exeter. It's not a rarity in these places but the norm. So, geographically, about a quarter of England retains it, and that's not including pockets of East Anglia and the South-East, where it can also still be heard.
[Edited at 2012-04-07 08:20 GMT]
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| Directors' dilemma | Apr 7, 2012 |
The whole subject of languages, accents, and so on must be a thorny one for film directors.
The apparent oddity of an American d'Artagnan in a Three Musketeers film whose other stars were British, mentioned in this thread, springs to mind. In fact none of those characters would have been speaking English of any kind. All of them would have been speaking 17th century French ...
Then we have those war films in which German officers talk to one another in English with GERMAN accents - r... See more The whole subject of languages, accents, and so on must be a thorny one for film directors.
The apparent oddity of an American d'Artagnan in a Three Musketeers film whose other stars were British, mentioned in this thread, springs to mind. In fact none of those characters would have been speaking English of any kind. All of them would have been speaking 17th century French ...
Then we have those war films in which German officers talk to one another in English with GERMAN accents - ridiculous. My preferred method for such situations is to have them speaking German with subtitles, but some directors obviously think audiences couldn't cope with that.
Then there are those Biblical epics with a mixture of English and American accents - e.g. Victor Mature (American) as the heroic character, Basil Rathbone (English) as Pontius Pilate, John Hurt as Caligula (baddies), or some such.
I seem to remember that poor old John Wayne was much derided in some circles when playing the centurion in charge of the crucifixition, for saying "Surely this man was the saaan of Gaaad" - at a time when the English language didn't exist. Presumably the centurion would have been speaking Latin? (with subtitles?) ☺
Jenny ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 11:05
Chinese to English
| Don't think General American is particularly conservative | Apr 7, 2012 |
I have heard the argument that some Appalachian dialects have been very conservative of the dialect that came over in the first wave of settlement - Shakespearian English, pretty much. But I've also seen those claims dismissed. So I wouldn't want to argue that American is closer to any past British accent than modern British forms (and remember that mediaeval Britain had a mass of different, often mutually-incomprehensible dialects, not just one olde worlde accent. I've often wondered how those ... See more I have heard the argument that some Appalachian dialects have been very conservative of the dialect that came over in the first wave of settlement - Shakespearian English, pretty much. But I've also seen those claims dismissed. So I wouldn't want to argue that American is closer to any past British accent than modern British forms (and remember that mediaeval Britain had a mass of different, often mutually-incomprehensible dialects, not just one olde worlde accent. I've often wondered how those Braveheart interrogations really went - could they understand a word he said? or were they conducted in French?)
But I do disagree with Ty on the knight with a Texan drawl. I personally have no problem with that.
The point is, this is not a historical thing, it's a cultural thing. British bands sing with (faux) American accents not because they have historical roots in the USA, but because they were imitating American singers - Elvis in particular - and it stuck. I assume sword-and-sandals stuff got done in British accents because the Brits had such a strong tradition of historical drama - Shakespeare in particular - and the association just stuck.
Don't forget that this feeds directly into American mythology, too. The American revolution overthrew (so the legend goes) classbound old England and created democratic, meritocratic America. And one of the defining features of fantasy is that the social structures in fantasy worlds are very regressive. There are kings and nobles, and good peasants who know their place. It's a bit hard to imagine someone saying "I know you have the right of prima nocte, my liege, but please don't spoil her virginity" in American, because America imagines itself as the kind of place where that can't happen. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Hebrew to English
| Who cares? Everyone seems happy with it | Apr 7, 2012 |
Why are fanstasy world accents British?
The answer is in the original BBC article:
"Martin, the creator of the Song of Ice And Fire series of books, was inspired a great deal by European Medieval history"
and
"Martin has said English accents work best for fantasy, as the genre is rooted in the Middle Ages. It's full of castles and lords and swords and knights and all the other trappings that we associate with England in this country. It seems n... See more Why are fanstasy world accents British?
The answer is in the original BBC article:
"Martin, the creator of the Song of Ice And Fire series of books, was inspired a great deal by European Medieval history"
and
"Martin has said English accents work best for fantasy, as the genre is rooted in the Middle Ages. It's full of castles and lords and swords and knights and all the other trappings that we associate with England in this country. It seems natural."
and
"But originally the books were sourced and based around at least a working knowledge of British history, the War of the Roses and things like that, and that certainly comes out in the way the royal family is structured and that sort of thing."
There's no need to get too heated about it seeing as it is a situation which both the Americans and the British seem content with.
"A New York accent wouldn't work," Dinklage, who was born in New Jersey and plays scheming Tyrion Lannister, recently explained to the Calgary Herald. "It doesn't sound right.
And if you go on the forums you see American fans' expectations have been met. "
They're happy with it, we're happy with it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The matter of unstandardised language | Apr 7, 2012 |
Something movie makers have to forget --if they know it-- is that in most countries there was no standardised language --schooling was reserved for the very rich--, not even from region to region or to valley to valley. People could easily identify the origin of the people who lived in neighbouring regions or even towns, and each person would speak the language the local way, and understand each other quite well nevertheless.
It would be interesting to see a movie where these remark... See more Something movie makers have to forget --if they know it-- is that in most countries there was no standardised language --schooling was reserved for the very rich--, not even from region to region or to valley to valley. People could easily identify the origin of the people who lived in neighbouring regions or even towns, and each person would speak the language the local way, and understand each other quite well nevertheless.
It would be interesting to see a movie where these remarkable differences between people from a common kingdom or domain were depicted to some degree. ▲ Collapse
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Dave Bindon
Greece
Local time: 06:05
Greek to English
In memoriam
I agree with the notion that the 'British' accent somehow suits fantasy worlds better because it's considered quaint and olde worlde.
The discussion of the many types of British accent which still remain to this day, however, has made me chuckle... I'm imagining blockbuster fantasy movies spoken entirley in Geordie (Newcastle), Brummie (Birmingham), Scouse (Liverpool), Glaswegian (Glasgow)... Few non-Brits would understand more than 50%!
| | | | Simon Bruni
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Member (2009)
Spanish to English
| Cockney Orcs and Gloucestershire hobbits | Apr 7, 2012 |
The makers of Lord of the Rings certainly put a lot of thought into it, with a whole "Dialect and Creative Language Department":
http://www.andrewjack.com/lord-of-the-rings-accent-rationale.htm
Always thought it odd though, how the four main hobbits have different accents: RP, Westcountry, Scottish and Irish, when they supposedly grew up together ... See more The makers of Lord of the Rings certainly put a lot of thought into it, with a whole "Dialect and Creative Language Department":
http://www.andrewjack.com/lord-of-the-rings-accent-rationale.htm
Always thought it odd though, how the four main hobbits have different accents: RP, Westcountry, Scottish and Irish, when they supposedly grew up together in one tiny village in the 'Shire'. And the elves sooooo should have been Welsh. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Spartacus sum! | Apr 7, 2012 |
I forgot to mention what may be the most striking example of all:
Kirk Douglas (American) as the noble rebel slave. Laurence Olivier (British) as Gluteus Maximus (or something), the vicious, lecherous Roman senator.
Jenny
| | | | Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 23:05
Member (2011)
English to German
| Immortals (2011 fantasy film) starring Henry Cavill, Freida Pinto, and Mickey Rourke | Apr 8, 2012 |
I watched the film ‘Immortals’ yesterday. The actors should IMHO all speak either British or American English. Otherwise, it’s inconsistent and sounds rather strange.
Throughout the film I'm wondering: How did this one American guy find his way to Greece and amongst these thousands of British speaking warriors???
By the way: It is also odd for me to watch films where American/British actors act as a German character. English with a bad German accent…
I a... See more I watched the film ‘Immortals’ yesterday. The actors should IMHO all speak either British or American English. Otherwise, it’s inconsistent and sounds rather strange.
Throughout the film I'm wondering: How did this one American guy find his way to Greece and amongst these thousands of British speaking warriors???
By the way: It is also odd for me to watch films where American/British actors act as a German character. English with a bad German accent…
I am of the opinion that Hollywood’s success in Germany is also mostly due to the excellent voice-over artists speaking an accent-free German.
Cheers,
Marina ▲ Collapse
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Hebrew to English
Agree with Marina really.
Especially in WW2 epics where both the Nazis and the Allies either speak exactly the same or the Nazis all speak in ridiculously over-accented German accents.
Particularly bad offenders:
Valkyrie (starring that weird imp Tom Cruise) - all use their own normal accents
Schindler's List - badly contrived German accents.
War Horse - very dubious German accent.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Member (2008)
Italian to English
What's "fantasy world"? Some sort of American thing?
| | | | | One more example of "thick" British accent in fantasy world | Apr 9, 2012 |
(It's a joke!!! I don't know how they are called in English, in Russian there is plenty of these digital rhymes).
Raibeart Burns (?). Ballad
23 507
13 4 7 85
5 9 100 3 11
3000 4 45
11 87 13
14 5 89 16
903 3 7 30
100 90 17
Spelling (first two lines)
23 507 - twentythree fivehundredseven
13 4 7 85 - thirteen four seven eightyfive etc.
[Edited at 2012-04-10 08:00 GMT]
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