Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Italian term or phrase:
capriole ontologiche
English translation:
ontological capers
Added to glossary by
Dana Rinaldi
Sep 19, 2010 16:27
13 yrs ago
Italian term
Italy
A passion for words
Native in: English 
, Italian
Works in: Italian to English, English to Italian
capriole ontologiche
Italian to English
Art/Literary
Philosophy
This is the context (from a book on cartography):
La tavola e la mappa sono la stessa cosa, ancora alla fine dell’Ottocento la prima era sinonimo della seconda, ambedue si riferiscono all’identica materiale “struttura che connette” come avrebbe detto Bateson, alla medesima “agenzia produttrice di pensiero” secondo l’espressione di Freud: al piano delle capriole ontologiche, delle più ardite trasmutazioni relative alla natura delle cose.
Thanks
La tavola e la mappa sono la stessa cosa, ancora alla fine dell’Ottocento la prima era sinonimo della seconda, ambedue si riferiscono all’identica materiale “struttura che connette” come avrebbe detto Bateson, alla medesima “agenzia produttrice di pensiero” secondo l’espressione di Freud: al piano delle capriole ontologiche, delle più ardite trasmutazioni relative alla natura delle cose.
Thanks
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +1 | ontological capers |
Michael Korovkin
|
| 4 +1 | ontological somersaults |
Matthew Furfine
|
| 3 +2 | ontological gymnastics |
Mr Murray (X)
|
| 2 +1 | ontological manoeuvre |
liz askew
|
| 3 | ontological leaps |
Jim Tucker (X)
|
| 3 | ontological intricacies |
cynthiatesser
|
Proposed translations
+1
1 hr
Michael Korovkin
Italy
Italy
Native in English
Italy
Native in: English , Russian
Works in: Russian to English, English to Russian, Italian to Russian, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
44
Selected
ontological capers
...still going on!!!
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Note added at 2 hrs (2010-09-19 18:52:54 GMT)
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Hi, Dana. Capriole ontologiche – is not a standard expression belonging to philosophical argot: it's ironic. Therefore, it would be futile to search for its "philosophical equivalent" in English, although, I'm sure, Google would contain instances of such a usage... as Google contains instances of ANY usage (and that's why I don't trust it one bit!). It sounds good and right to me; I personally used “theoretical capers" many a time in my own books and articles, so why not? Cheers.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2010-09-19 18:52:54 GMT)
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Hi, Dana. Capriole ontologiche – is not a standard expression belonging to philosophical argot: it's ironic. Therefore, it would be futile to search for its "philosophical equivalent" in English, although, I'm sure, Google would contain instances of such a usage... as Google contains instances of ANY usage (and that's why I don't trust it one bit!). It sounds good and right to me; I personally used “theoretical capers" many a time in my own books and articles, so why not? Cheers.
Note from asker:
| I had found ontological capers but I'm not convinced. Did you find any links that could help? Thanks. |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "I stayed with my original idea after all. Thanks to everyone."
+1
15 mins
ontological manoeuvre
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
cynthiatesser
28 mins
|
| neutral |
Thomas Roberts
: I also think this is a misleadingly weak rendition.
13 hrs
|
|
hence the 2. Thanks for the nice comment.
|
54 mins
ontological leaps
Generally used in religious discussions, of the transformation from ape to humans, but can be applied to other radical changes.
Specifically, it is used to indicate the transformation from idea to substance, as in your passage.
http://forum.wolframscience.com/showthread.php?threadid=1495
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Note added at 1 hr (2010-09-19 17:27:59 GMT)
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(2500 Google hits in quotes)
Specifically, it is used to indicate the transformation from idea to substance, as in your passage.
http://forum.wolframscience.com/showthread.php?threadid=1495
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Note added at 1 hr (2010-09-19 17:27:59 GMT)
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(2500 Google hits in quotes)
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Michael Korovkin
: no, "ontological leap" is a standard philosophical expression; and its no less standard equivalent in Italian is "salto ontologico" - not "capriola" + Ecco la risposta d'un vero professionista! Magari tutti i colleghi fossero così! Cheers!
1 day 4 hrs
|
|
OK, I buy that.
|
2 hrs
cynthiatesser
Italy
Italy
Native in Italian
Italy
Knowledge makes the difference
Native in: Italian (Variant: Standard-Italy)
Works in: English to Italian, French to Italian, Italian
Related KudoZ points
:
8
ontological intricacies
As everyone seems to disagree with anyone else I'm providing further reasons for disagreement :-)
+1
10 hrs
Matthew Furfine
United States
United States
Native in English
Works in field
United States
Unrestricted communication.
Native in: English 
Works in: Italian to English, English to Italian, French to English, and 3 more.
ontological somersaults
I would stress the histrionic nature of the mental positioning, choosing the most direct translation of "capriole", which should also render the metaphor less dry and abstract.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
luskie
: non sono sicura di come tradurrei, ma cercherei di non discostarmi troppo dall'originale... sicuramente non è un'espressione tipicamente filosofica (come invece "salto ontologico")... e una capriola è una capriola è una capriola :)
18 hrs
|
+2
7 hrs
ontological gymnastics
I understand this as being in line with Saint Aquinas and Jacques Lacan's ideas on 'self-reflexivity' ... tied in directly to the text with Lacan's analysis of Descartes (along with Freud's opinions of Descartes)...and other clues.
The main clue being "La tavola e la mappa sono la stessa cosa" - 'meaning, they have folded back into 'itself' as one.'
Aquinas was similarly discussing the 'reflexivity of the soul'. The 'reditus ad seipam' - the bending of the soul back upon itself.
This folding-back - NOT a leap, or jump ahead - matches the use of 'capriola' in the idiom 'fare le capriole per quelcosa' - to 'bend over backwards for something'.
But, 'bending over backwards' is not quite the idea here, as it suggests a sacrifice. So, I went with a synonym - gymnastics. [not sure how many Ghits that gets* - I'm basing my answer on my understanding of the text.]
I think 'ontological flexibility' would give the wrong message as it doesn't indicate the direction, and deals with mutations.
Plus, 'gymnastics' gives the idea of 'contortions,' 'somersaults' and 'choreography' - as associated with 'capriole.'
The reference ("“struttura che connette” ('sensitivity to the structures that connect’)) to Gregory Bateson in the T1 also convinces me this is a 'folding backward' - as Bateson was interested in the 'economics of flexibility.'
Well, to put it simply - the translation piece is quite weighty, and ties together a history of western thought on the self quite nicely.
[*bwah - it only gets 16 Ghits. Oh, well! If answers are decided on Ghits, better forget this one.]
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Note added at 7 days (2010-09-27 13:06:24 GMT) Post-grading
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I'm glad I could at least provide a few 'real world' examples.
The main clue being "La tavola e la mappa sono la stessa cosa" - 'meaning, they have folded back into 'itself' as one.'
Aquinas was similarly discussing the 'reflexivity of the soul'. The 'reditus ad seipam' - the bending of the soul back upon itself.
This folding-back - NOT a leap, or jump ahead - matches the use of 'capriola' in the idiom 'fare le capriole per quelcosa' - to 'bend over backwards for something'.
But, 'bending over backwards' is not quite the idea here, as it suggests a sacrifice. So, I went with a synonym - gymnastics. [not sure how many Ghits that gets* - I'm basing my answer on my understanding of the text.]
I think 'ontological flexibility' would give the wrong message as it doesn't indicate the direction, and deals with mutations.
Plus, 'gymnastics' gives the idea of 'contortions,' 'somersaults' and 'choreography' - as associated with 'capriole.'
The reference ("“struttura che connette” ('sensitivity to the structures that connect’)) to Gregory Bateson in the T1 also convinces me this is a 'folding backward' - as Bateson was interested in the 'economics of flexibility.'
Well, to put it simply - the translation piece is quite weighty, and ties together a history of western thought on the self quite nicely.
[*bwah - it only gets 16 Ghits. Oh, well! If answers are decided on Ghits, better forget this one.]
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 days (2010-09-27 13:06:24 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
I'm glad I could at least provide a few 'real world' examples.
Example sentence:
Through this form of <b>ontological gymnastics</b> comes the primary illumination of the Discordian mystic. [web source]
But he saves himself once again by embodying polar opposites, by performing the <b>ontological gymnastics</b> he attributed to Jean Genet. [web source]
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Thomas Roberts
: A capriola is literally a "forward roll", and this is never used in a figurative sense in English. Gynmastics encapsulates the concept the original author had in mind.
6 hrs
|
|
Thank you Thomas - I only saw this agree after the decision. Sorry.
|
|
| agree |
Jim Tucker (X)
1 day 8 hrs
|
|
Thank you Jim - I only saw this agree after the decision. Sorry.
|
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