| Pages sur ce sujet: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53] > | Ten common myths about translation quality
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| | | Native translation is really not an American thing | Jul 21, 2013 |
This is why I was really surprised when I found out that these are the trends right now in Europe. It is most likely because of all the discrimination issues here, and that native is really associated with Native American, and there are not that many foreigners working in translation -- mostly only the people who were born here, or have lived here most of their lives, and were educated here. People are asked about their best language, or the language they are most comfortable with in writing, or... See more This is why I was really surprised when I found out that these are the trends right now in Europe. It is most likely because of all the discrimination issues here, and that native is really associated with Native American, and there are not that many foreigners working in translation -- mostly only the people who were born here, or have lived here most of their lives, and were educated here. People are asked about their best language, or the language they are most comfortable with in writing, or in speech (these may be two different languages, at times) but no-one uses any native language, or mother tongue terms, anymore. I have a feeling that these terms are very imprecise and outdated.
[Edited at 2013-07-21 17:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It would take a long while | Jul 21, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Well it depends what you mean by "fluent". University ab initio courses tend to be rather gruelling, and they do include a year of immersion. So I imagine you can indeed get quite "fluent" in those four years if you apply yourself. Not that they would expect you to totally master the language like a native in those 4 years, it is merely undergraduate level after all - there's still more to learn.
... But a long while can be concentrated into a shorter time span if you take an intensive course. Still, with just four years, I would expect a foreign Polish speaker to be somewhat fluent but not nearly correct in terms of getting inflection and word formation to a level enabling good writing. Things would be different with a student who'd mastered Latin or Greek or something else like that at a young age (or at least German). Our conjugations and declinations are a mine field, and so are the prepositions we integrate into verbs as prefixes. Suffixes could be easier, though I still wouldn't be counting on spectacular success. Bottom line, I'm skeptical.
| | | | Tatty 
Local time: 17:51
espagnol vers anglais
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| A bit of a crazy idea | Jul 21, 2013 |
This may be a bit of a crazy idea, but if you already have degree-level studies then you don't really need any more. So you could just skip going to Sheffield to learn Polish and head directly to Poland. They probably even offer translation courses there, maybe even legal translation courses. Even if you do from English into Polish, it would probably greatly improve your understanding of or insight into Polish.
Just an idea.
| | | | | Legal Polish | Jul 21, 2013 |
Tatty wrote:
This may be a bit of a crazy idea, but if you already have degree-level studies then you don't really need any more. So you could just skip going to Sheffield to learn Polish and head directly to Poland. They probably even offer translation courses there, maybe even legal translation courses. Even if you do from English into Polish, it would probably greatly improve your understanding of or insight into Polish.
Just an idea.
Even Ph.D. candidates in legilinguistics who are not jurists are capable of spectacular blunders. Heck, I'd have a hard time trusting a completed Ph.D. I know of about two PLEN legal translators who are not jurists and whom I'd trust, and both are basically geniuses, so they just catch things. Don't expect to understand Polish law without Polish law school (or perhaps German or French law school). Actually, more like top-tier Polish law school with a good grade. I often have the impression that most lawyers don't completely understand what they read or write, up to high-ranking judges and low-ranking scholars. This is despite Poles being a remarkably smart nation overall. Impressive legal language is probably limited to the best writers among Supreme Court justices (especially those who lived several decades ago) and elite law professors. Most practicing lawyers, active scholars and administrative officials make me want to cry when I read them. And those are guys who live and breathe Polish law.
But general Polish is more viable.
[Edited at 2013-07-21 20:52 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-07-21 20:52 GMT]
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Ty Kendall
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 16:51
hébreu vers anglais
| The aim of the course though... | Jul 21, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
Well it depends what you mean by "fluent". University ab initio courses tend to be rather gruelling, and they do include a year of immersion. So I imagine you can indeed get quite "fluent" in those four years if you apply yourself. Not that they would expect you to totally master the language like a native in those 4 years, it is merely undergraduate level after all - there's still more to learn. ... But a long while can be concentrated into a shorter time span if you take an intensive course. Still, with just four years, I would expect a foreign Polish speaker to be somewhat fluent but not nearly correct in terms of getting inflection and word formation to a level enabling good writing. Things would be different with a student who'd mastered Latin or Greek or something else like that at a young age (or at least German). Our conjugations and declinations are a mine field, and so are the prepositions we integrate into verbs as prefixes. Suffixes could be easier, though I still wouldn't be counting on spectacular success. Bottom line, I'm skeptical.
...isn't to churn out translators or interpreters. I think it's assumed they'd need to go on and do a masters (2 more years) and possibly more (PhD), not to mention a lot more practical experience/residence in the country.
| | | | | For legal translation | Jul 21, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
Well it depends what you mean by "fluent". University ab initio courses tend to be rather gruelling, and they do include a year of immersion. So I imagine you can indeed get quite "fluent" in those four years if you apply yourself. Not that they would expect you to totally master the language like a native in those 4 years, it is merely undergraduate level after all - there's still more to learn. ... But a long while can be concentrated into a shorter time span if you take an intensive course. Still, with just four years, I would expect a foreign Polish speaker to be somewhat fluent but not nearly correct in terms of getting inflection and word formation to a level enabling good writing. Things would be different with a student who'd mastered Latin or Greek or something else like that at a young age (or at least German). Our conjugations and declinations are a mine field, and so are the prepositions we integrate into verbs as prefixes. Suffixes could be easier, though I still wouldn't be counting on spectacular success. Bottom line, I'm skeptical. ...isn't to churn out translators or interpreters. I think it's assumed they'd need to go on and do a masters (2 more years) and possibly more (PhD), not to mention a lot more practical experience/residence in the country.
... you actually wouldn't really need residence, nor would residence really help you. You'd just need to see contracts, judgments, admin paperwork, litigation etc. to get a feel of the style on top of understanding the content.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 16:51
hébreu vers anglais
| Oh, I didn't mean legal translation | Jul 22, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
... you actually wouldn't really need residence, nor would residence really help you.
I just meant for generic linguistic competence in the language, which I would consider necessary before specializing or venturing into translation.
| | | | | Legal Translation courses for people who learned Polish in four years? | Jul 22, 2013 |
Good luck, really. I admire your optimism. I have been speaking Polish (not constantly) for over forty years, I studied Polish legal system (in the US but from Polish law school books), and sometimes, I have no idea what they are talking about. Polish legal language is very specific, quite unpredictable and difficult, even more so than other legaleses.
And I agree with Ty,that more education never hurts-- in the past most translators went to graduate schools.
[Edited at 20... See more Good luck, really. I admire your optimism. I have been speaking Polish (not constantly) for over forty years, I studied Polish legal system (in the US but from Polish law school books), and sometimes, I have no idea what they are talking about. Polish legal language is very specific, quite unpredictable and difficult, even more so than other legaleses.
And I agree with Ty,that more education never hurts-- in the past most translators went to graduate schools.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 08:20 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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XXXphxxx (X)
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 16:51
portugais vers anglais
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| Once more unto the breach | Jul 22, 2013 |
This whole discussion is off-topic since the issue of native speakers wasn’t even mentioned in the news item It’s a discussion that crops up on this site several times a week and is rarely seen on professional translators’ forums. The reasoning can essentially be distilled into two groups: those who believe a target text need not necessarily read as if a native speaker had written it and/or that a non-native speaker can prod... See more This whole discussion is off-topic since the issue of native speakers wasn’t even mentioned in the news item It’s a discussion that crops up on this site several times a week and is rarely seen on professional translators’ forums. The reasoning can essentially be distilled into two groups: those who believe a target text need not necessarily read as if a native speaker had written it and/or that a non-native speaker can produce output that reads as if a native speaker had written it, and those who believe that target texts should only be written by native speakers of the target language – ne’er the twain shall meet. Each side has its own valid arguments but I am yet to see anyone budging or changing their pov on this. Arguing about varying degrees of competence in a target language also strikes me as a somewhat redundant argument, for I have never come across a non-native speaker of a language on these forums or elsewhere who would genuinely pass for a native speaker, so if that’s the guiding principle it’s a non-argument.
I realise this won’t settle any dispute ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It is not that off-topic, Lisa | Jul 22, 2013 |
and if people want to discuss it, no one should stop them. I actually think it is right on the spot, and it was quite a civil discussion. Only through honest, uncensored discussions you can solve real problems, not by covering things up.
Translators, especially of rare languages, do not have to pass for native speakers -- they just have to correctly translate into the target language, regardless whether their style is perfect or not, and then the role of the editor is to fix the te... See more and if people want to discuss it, no one should stop them. I actually think it is right on the spot, and it was quite a civil discussion. Only through honest, uncensored discussions you can solve real problems, not by covering things up.
Translators, especially of rare languages, do not have to pass for native speakers -- they just have to correctly translate into the target language, regardless whether their style is perfect or not, and then the role of the editor is to fix the text, if needed. Many monolingual people may actually not pass for native speakers of any language, if you just looked at their written productions.
However, I agree with you, that very people who do not speak the target language in everyday life, and who do not live in the country where it is spoken, or have most of their education in that language, can properly translate into that language. On the other hand, no-one will tell me that a person who studied a difficult (especially highly inflected language, or a language from a totally different group) will be able to translate from that language after four years of studies (especially legal, technical, or medical texts).
I also think it is very important to spend some time in the country the language of which you are learning --more like 1-2 years,or more.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 08:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 16:51
hébreu vers anglais
| Just remember.... | Jul 22, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
no-one will tell me that a person who studied a difficult (especially highly inflected language, or a language from a totally different group) will be able to translate from that language after four years of studies (especially legal, technical, or medical texts).
...that this isn't the aim of the BA courses in pure languages. They don't say "at the end of these four years you will be a fully qualified/prepared translator" they merely produce graduates who have a solid grounding in the given language, giving them a relatively high degree of the highly un-linguistic term "fluency" - this doesn't necessarily mean their accuracy is error free, but then fluency never presupposes that.
| | | | | Yes, I understand. This is | Jul 22, 2013 |
a good start, but they have a lot more studying to do, and practice.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 09:11 GMT]
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[Edited at 2013-07-22 09:12 GMT]
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Empty post | Kirsten Bodart
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 17:51
néerlandais vers anglais
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| And who in the UK | Jul 22, 2013 |
will be doing possibly 6+ years of studying (apart from the Scottish) in view of the HUGE cost attached to that? You'll be regretting it for the rest of your life.
It's probably cheaper to go to Russia or Poland and enrol in a university there (provided you understand enough of the language). I'm not confident that will happen any time soon, though.
There are two aspects to this: those who argue for native speakers target only forget that some language pairs either have very f... See more will be doing possibly 6+ years of studying (apart from the Scottish) in view of the HUGE cost attached to that? You'll be regretting it for the rest of your life.
It's probably cheaper to go to Russia or Poland and enrol in a university there (provided you understand enough of the language). I'm not confident that will happen any time soon, though.
There are two aspects to this: those who argue for native speakers target only forget that some language pairs either have very few of such translators or that there are aspects of these languages that are so treacherous that you should be, as Lukasz (?) says, a native target genius who can just 'catch' things in the source without really knowing them. You cannot teach these things and you cannot learn them by studying, you have that linguistic talent or you don't.
Those who argue for non-native speakers (particularly in the rarer languages) are aware that the target will not be totally 'native' and won't flow xas a native would write it, BUT they think fidelity to the meaning of the source is more important. Particularly in intricate and difficult languages or languages where certain aspects are too difficult for most mortals to understand (sometimes even source natives), it seems to me to be pretty straightforward to at least value both non-native and native target translators on their FIDELITY and not on their nativeness.
My husband and I both believe there is a very vague line between a bad native target translator and a very good non-native target translator.
What is the most important in this whole issue? That the text is properly translated (the ideas and style in it) or that it flows properly? Essentially, you can make it flow properly by using a good native target editor. Once a text has been badly translated, it's a bad translation, full stop. Whether it flows properly or not.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 10:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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