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| | XXXphxxx (X) 
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:50
portugués al inglés
+ ...
| If only it were so simple | Jul 22, 2013 |
Kirsten Bodart wrote:
What is the most important in this whole issue? That the text is properly translated (the ideas and style in it) or that it flows properly? Essentially, you can make it flow properly by using a good native target editor. Once a text has been badly translated, it's a bad translation, full stop. Whether it flows properly or not.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 10:26 GMT]
The problem Kirsten is that people (all of us) are very bad at judging how good we actually are when writing in our non-native language. This demands someone who is highly proficient in the language and we're talking hen's teeth here. There is, for example, tons of work for editors working on academic papers written in English by non-native speakers of the language. This can be soul-destroying work. At first glance it'll look perfectly fluent until you take a closer look and realise the text is deeply flawed and a lot of it is utterly meaningless. The message has got lost at the first hurdle and trying to decipher it becomes a question of guesswork, even for the most brilliant native target editor. How many times have people working on these kinds of jobs wished that these academics had written in their native language and then got the work translated by a native speaker of the target? I think I've wished it every single time.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:50
hebreo al inglés
| Here's a myth about translation quality.... | Jul 22, 2013 |
It's the myth that native language has no bearing at all on translation quality.
| | | | | All academic work has to be written in the language in which the course was | Jul 22, 2013 |
taken -- there is no other way around. I hope you don't assume that some people who spoke a different language at the age of six translate from their L1 into the language of their university courses instruction at the age of 20. Hopefully they all think in English, and if they were admitted to a particular university they should make sense in the language of instruction. Some minor mistakes can always be fixed by a proofreader. If they don't make sense in the language of their studies -- the cha... See more taken -- there is no other way around. I hope you don't assume that some people who spoke a different language at the age of six translate from their L1 into the language of their university courses instruction at the age of 20. Hopefully they all think in English, and if they were admitted to a particular university they should make sense in the language of instruction. Some minor mistakes can always be fixed by a proofreader. If they don't make sense in the language of their studies -- the chances are that they would make very little sense in any language.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 11:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 20:50
español al inglés
+ ...
| Different standards | Jul 22, 2013 |
I just think that there are currently different standards of translation for different language combinations. Between the major European languages, standards must be set high. The European education system nowadays is capable of producing competent translators in any combination of them. Naturally, you have to fund these studies.
For rarer languages, which clearly won't pay so much, non-natives will have to perform translations. They cannot aspire to professional-standard translatio... See more I just think that there are currently different standards of translation for different language combinations. Between the major European languages, standards must be set high. The European education system nowadays is capable of producing competent translators in any combination of them. Naturally, you have to fund these studies.
For rarer languages, which clearly won't pay so much, non-natives will have to perform translations. They cannot aspire to professional-standard translations just useable ones. The problem here is that they will not inspire confidence in the intended reader. And I think that it must be mission impossible to edit these translations without understanding the source language.
However, the situation with the rarer languages may change in the near future given that there is so much mobility within Europe. But another phenomenon which is becoming increasing common is the lack of a native language. I find this truly alarming. Whatever language the person speaks in they are always foreign. I think that awareness should be raised in this respect. ▲ Collapse
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XXXphxxx (X)
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:50
portugués al inglés
+ ...
| You have misunderstood | Jul 22, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
taken -- there is no other way around. I hope you don't assume that some people who spoke a different language at the age of six translate from their L1 into the language of their university courses instruction at the age of 20. Hopefully they all think in English, and if they were admitted to a particular university they should make sense in the language of instruction. Some minor mistakes can always be fixed by a proofreader. If they don't make sense in the language of their studies -- the chances are that they would make very little sense in any language.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 11:06 GMT]
These are papers written by academics: professors, readers... Courses and instruction don't come into it.
| | | | | Well, rarer, or more difficult, does not mean less business, necessarily. | Jul 22, 2013 |
Languages like Czech, or Polish, might bring quite a lot of work -- they may be just very difficult for some people who grew up speaking English, or French, only.
I think translation standards should be the same for any language -- and I think they usually are -- this might be a myth, or a misconception that they are not.
It the target text is not perfect, it simply has to be edited. You cannot hand in a less than perfect translation to the original client. Editing,... See more Languages like Czech, or Polish, might bring quite a lot of work -- they may be just very difficult for some people who grew up speaking English, or French, only.
I think translation standards should be the same for any language -- and I think they usually are -- this might be a myth, or a misconception that they are not.
It the target text is not perfect, it simply has to be edited. You cannot hand in a less than perfect translation to the original client. Editing, and proofreading might be the something that should not be neglected, as it is now.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 11:44 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 20:50
español al inglés
+ ...
A message has appeared telling me how many times I've posted on this thread. Am I making a pest of myself?
Final comment. Polish is reputed to be a difficult language and personally, I've never attempted to learn it. However, last year, I started learning German. It is my personally held opinion that your progress depends to a large extent on how well the language is taught. Given that Polish isn't a very popular language the Poles themselves probably don't teach it very well. Clear... See more A message has appeared telling me how many times I've posted on this thread. Am I making a pest of myself?
Final comment. Polish is reputed to be a difficult language and personally, I've never attempted to learn it. However, last year, I started learning German. It is my personally held opinion that your progress depends to a large extent on how well the language is taught. Given that Polish isn't a very popular language the Poles themselves probably don't teach it very well. Clearly, this opinion is based on extrapolation and guesswork. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I am not sure what you are referring to, Lisa | Jul 22, 2013 |
You mean that they are professors at some other universities in countries like Poland or France, like mathematics, or physics professors, but they wrote their works in English? This would be totally different than in the case of the people educated in a particular language, or professional translators.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 11:29 GMT]
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| The corollary... | Jul 22, 2013 |
... myth being that native language is the only thing that matters for translation quality.
I've known several non-native speakers of my 'native' language who master it with remarkable skill. Many - if not most - of them are NOT translators.
Likewise, I've known educated countryfellows of mine whose writing quality in our common nativ... See more ... myth being that native language is the only thing that matters for translation quality.
I've known several non-native speakers of my 'native' language who master it with remarkable skill. Many - if not most - of them are NOT translators.
Likewise, I've known educated countryfellows of mine whose writing quality in our common native language would not be acceptable, if their original texts were translations from any foreign language. Some are translation clients of mine.
So my take is that being a native speaker of the target language is ONE of the several criteria for selecting the best translator for a certain job. These criteria should be individually weighted for each job, and some kind of compromise is often the only way to find a suitable human translator. Assigning weights to these criteria and selecting the best compromise for each job would be the craft of a master translation project manager.
If this weighting process seems uncanny to you, just look at the quantity of forum threads here on Proz moaning about low rates. They come from PMs who assign 'low rates' top priority to all jobs, and any other criteria they know are ranked secondary or lower. So all PMs do it, yet many do it less sensibly than they should. q.e.d.
Ty Kendall wrote:
It's the myth that native language has no bearing at all on translation quality. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 00:20
Miembro 2006
inglés al hindi
+ ...
LOCALIZADOR DEL SITIO | Academics are not language experts | Jul 22, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Kirsten Bodart wrote:
What is the most important in this whole issue? That the text is properly translated (the ideas and style in it) or that it flows properly? Essentially, you can make it flow properly by using a good native target editor. Once a text has been badly translated, it's a bad translation, full stop. Whether it flows properly or not.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 10:26 GMT] The problem Kirsten is that people (all of us) are very bad at judging how good we actually are when writing in our non-native language. This demands someone who is highly proficient in the language and we're talking hen's teeth here. There is, for example, tons of work for editors working on academic papers written in English by non-native speakers of the language. This can be soul-destroying work. At first glance it'll look perfectly fluent until you take a closer look and realise the text is deeply flawed and a lot of it is utterly meaningless. The message has got lost at the first hurdle and trying to decipher it becomes a question of guesswork, even for the most brilliant native target editor. How many times have people working on these kinds of jobs wished that these academics had written in their native language and then got the work translated by a native speaker of the target? I think I've wished it every single time.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. Academics are not language specialists. What academics write in even their native languages (English for example) can be gibberish, even without a non-native translator contributing anything to its gibberishness.
When professional translators translate into languages in which they are proficient, the result is a native-level quality translation.
This is even more so in international languages like English, which have better facilities of formal language education in many non-English speaking areas.
Which is why I repeatedly say that this is a myth, and nothing but that, that non-natives cannot produce a translation that is as good as a translation produced by native translators.
Regarding another point that you have raised as to why other professional translation sites are not discussing this issue ad infinitum, the reason is quite simple and easy to grasp. This site discriminates against non-natives translating into their non-native proficient language. So there is a lot of pent up anger against this site with regard to this issue, which pours out into the forums at he drop of the hat.
If proz.com stops restricting access to jobs on the basis of native language, all this passion will dry up the very next day.
I wish that day would come soon.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 00:20
Miembro 2006
inglés al hindi
+ ...
LOCALIZADOR DEL SITIO | But that is a statement of fact | Jul 22, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
It's the myth that native language has no bearing at all on translation quality.
| | | | | I agree with Jose and Balasubramaniam | Jul 22, 2013 |
Native quality of the final outcome of translation is just one of the criteria, although an important one.
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Ty Kendall
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:50
hebreo al inglés
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
... myth being that native language is the only thing that matters for translation quality.
I don't think anybody in their right mind would claim that though. I certainly never have.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:50
hebreo al inglés
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
It's the myth that native language has no bearing at all on translation quality.
Yes Bala, it is a statement of fact that it's a myth
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 00:20
Miembro 2006
inglés al hindi
+ ...
LOCALIZADOR DEL SITIO
Ty Kendall wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
It's the myth that native language has no bearing at all on translation quality. Yes Bala, it is a statement of fact that it's a myth
Yes Ty, it is a statement of fact that that it's a myth is a myth. )
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