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| | | Yes, José, Ethics would and will be the solution... | Jul 31, 2013 |
when we finally become members of a respected and self respecting profession, or when ethical principles are enforced.
But we are not yet there. Being far from having a full plate, our colleagues grab whatever they can, although many really should look for other sources of sustenance.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
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Any subject matter; any media, video, dubbing, subtitling, interactive DVD; PDF; DTP; PPT; whatever! Keep 'em comin'!
Of that list, translating into my native language, I may, with reservations, take PPT files.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Would a truly native speaker having good translating experience with complex financial reports be able to properly translate the intricacy of chemical and biological reactions that will take place in the next generation treatment for cancer? Would a truly native speaker seasoned in translating telecommunications and IT systems RFPs do an adequate job translating a spiritual self-help book? I'd bet against them.
Nope, re this native speaker. I translate only legal, chemical engineering, and, sometimes finance texts, to my native language. It is ethical, it makes business sense, and it is truly CYA, at least for me, as I work on areas I master, having a PhD in ChemE., an MBA in Finance and a JD, all from US universities, although my native language is still Spanish.
And here is my question: Do you believe by any chance that the situation would be improved having general non-natives translating into foreign languages? Are they, by any chance, more ethical people? Are they showing how ethical they are, claiming that they are natives in a given language and then showing in their profiles they are not?
[Edited at 2013-07-31 00:50 GMT]
| | | | Nicole Schnell 
Statele Unite
Local time: 19:25
din engleză în germană
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In Memoriam | All parallel discussions aside, Lilian does have a valid point. | Jul 31, 2013 |
In terms of "native speaker-ness", that is, and why it might not be the non plus ultra when it comes to certifying true command of the target language based on where a person was born.
Germany is a popular immigration country. As a "native speaker" and especially from a distance, I can tell what the abundance of immigrants has done to the German language. Technically, any migrant kid who was born in Germany should be a native speaker. Sorry, far off. Very, very far off. The migrant... See more In terms of "native speaker-ness", that is, and why it might not be the non plus ultra when it comes to certifying true command of the target language based on where a person was born.
Germany is a popular immigration country. As a "native speaker" and especially from a distance, I can tell what the abundance of immigrants has done to the German language. Technically, any migrant kid who was born in Germany should be a native speaker. Sorry, far off. Very, very far off. The migrant kids learn their "German" on the street and in class rooms that are populated by 90% of non-native speakers. They stay among themselves. German youngsters find this influence on the German language hilarious and entertaining, and more and more appalling ghetto phrases make their way into day-by-day language.
So, who are the native speakers of German? Apparently it doesn't go by birth certificate. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
Statele Unite
Local time: 19:25
Membru (2006)
din norvegiană în engleză
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| Immigrant children | Jul 31, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
Germany is a popular immigration country. As a "native speaker" and especially from a distance, I can tell what the abundance of immigrants has done to the German language. Technically, any migrant kid who was born in Germany should be a native speaker. Sorry, far off. Very, very far off. The migrant kids learn their "German" on the street and in class rooms that are populated by 90% of non-native speakers. They stay among themselves. German youngsters find this influence on the German language hilarious and entertaining, and more and more appalling ghetto phrases make their way into day-by-day language.
So, who are the native speakers of German?
People who grow up speaking a variety of German are native speakers of German. The immigrant children you mention are native speakers of Einwanderer Deutsch.
[Edited at 2013-07-31 02:09 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:55
Membru (2006)
din engleză în hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | I wouldn't put it that way | Jul 31, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Enrique Cavalitto wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
While anyone can declare two languages as native, the moment you do it, both your languages will get unverified. And I understand it is not easy at proz.com to get your second language verified.
ProZ.com job restrictions are based on declared native language.
You can declare one or two native languages.
ProZ.com plans to verify native languages in the future, but no programs or deadlines are in place yet.
In preparation for these plans, the native languages of members who declared only one NL appear 'verified' while in all other cases (non-members and/or double native languages) they look 'unverified', but this difference has no impact on job restrictions.
This applies both to jobs posted in the site and to directory searches.
Regards,
Enrique Just wanted to make the point that it was discussed in the forums last year that many had declared and still display two native languages in their profiles, of which one is often English but that many native and even non-native English speakers in the forum threads had the impression, based on viewing text and other information in these profiles, that it was highly unlikely that English was indeed one of the claimants' native languages. Although I have no problem with letting anyone claim two native languages when they first register at Proz.com, I would like to see this status limited to a certain period of time after which, since no verification process is in place, the user or member should have to choose between one of these declared languages and his/her profile page should then only display one native language. Otherwise, it clearly allows anyone to claim English or any other language as their second native language, for an unlimited period of time, when in fact it might not be. This seems unfair to translators who certainly have an advanced knowledge of their second, non-native language but decided, as they should, to stick to the truth and not report it as their second native language. I don't see any point in keeping two unverified native languages forever. I would like to see only verified native languages displayed in the long run. If certain exceptions for regions or individuals with multiple native languages seem warranted and declaring two native languages as verified native languages should be allowed, then I would suggest an appropriate application form as I have suggested a few pages ago. Could you consider adding this time limit for displaying two native languages in the near future or at least forward my ideas to those staff members who work on finding solutions with regard to verifying native languages? An alternative would be to let everyone display only one native language as long as it cannot be determined that he/she really has two native languages. Thank you. Bernhard [Edited at 2013-07-30 17:34 GMT] add-on: reposted as separate post [Edited at 2013-07-30 17:57 GMT]
Strangely, I find myself in agreement with this!
Except this part:
... This seems unfair to translators who certainly have an advanced knowledge of their second, non-native language but decided, as they should, to stick to the truth and not report it as their second native language.
The question of truthfulness or otherwise does not come into the picture in my opinion. The issue instead is ambiguity with what the site means by "native language". If it means "native-level proficiency" then few translators with integrity would have qualms about declaring their second proficient language as their native language. But if the site takes native language in a more geographical and ethnic sense as the "language of the linguistic group to which you are born" then many would hesitate, especially with international languages like English, where it is possible to acquire native-level proficiency without being born into a group of native speakers of that language.
It is to clear up on this ambiguity that the site should define what it means by "native language" and in my opinion that definition can only be a proficiency based definition such as "a language in which you have proficiency equal to that of educated natives of that language". This is the definition that most professional translation associations such as the ATA and the IoL also use.
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Bernhard Sulzer
Statele Unite
Local time: 22:25
din engleză în germană
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| non-plus-ultra translator most often among native speakers | Jul 31, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
In terms of "native speaker-ness", that is, and why it might not be the non plus ultra when it comes to certifying true command of the target language based on where a person was born.
Germany is a popular immigration country. As a "native speaker" and especially from a distance, I can tell what the abundance of immigrants has done to the German language. Technically, any migrant kid who was born in Germany should be a native speaker. Sorry, far off. Very, very far off. The migrant kids learn their "German" on the street and in class rooms that are populated by 90% of non-native speakers. They stay among themselves. German youngsters find this influence on the German language hilarious and entertaining, and more and more appalling ghetto phrases make their way into day-by-day language.
So, who are the native speakers of German? Apparently it doesn't go by birth certificate.
I do not hold that the "birthplace" defines native language. But it's likely that a person born, raised, and educated in Germany is indeed a native German speaker.
I think your comments are valid to a certain point. Even Mrs. Merkel has conceded that attempts of "integration" have failed. Not a good development.
But it might be a bit exaggerated to say that you can't be sure anymore if someone from Germany is a native German speaker. I believe it's still valid to say that if someone grew up and was educated in Germany, he/she is still most likely a native German speaker and speaks the language as it is spoken and written by the majority of people there.
Will you agree that in case of translators who claim German as their only native language, it can be reasonably assumed that it is indeed their native language?
Now I think it unlikely that someone who went through all stages of mandatory schooling in Germany and most likely did not live just inside a non-German home environment and did not just watch non-German TV, still manages not to become a genuine native German speaker.
Possible? Maybe. Very probable?
And when you say "true command of the target language" you mean a translator's command, right, not any native speaker's? That point is important to me because when someone chooses a native speaker of the target language as their translator, they do expect a very high degree of that command of a native language.
Wouldn't you agree that it is more likely that a professional translator whose native language is German will be expected to do a better job in many fields of expertise than a non-native speaker, translating into German?
I just don't see the non-plus-ultra German translator as being a non-native German translator. Maybe for certain projects?!
Bernhard
[Edited at 2013-07-31 02:19 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:55
Membru (2006)
din engleză în hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | Yes the verified status is meanigless in the current set up | Jul 31, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Enrique Cavalitto wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
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I don't see any point in keeping two unverified native languages forever. I would like to see only verified native languages displayed in the long run. If certain exceptions for regions or individuals with multiple native languages seem warranted and declaring two native languages as verified native languages should be allowed, then I would suggest an appropriate application form as I have suggested a few pages ago.
Could you consider adding this time limit for displaying two native languages in the near future or at least forward my ideas to those staff members who work on finding solutions with regard to verifying native languages? An alternative would be to let everyone display only one native language as long as it cannot be determined that he/she really has two native languages.
Thank you.
Bernhard
I see no advantage to our members in adding the time limit you suggest above. Regards, Enrique Why should it matter then at all to have verified icons? A person with two unverified native languages will come up as native speaker of both in the search directory. And it doesn't say that they are unverified. Why would anyone want to keep their native languages unverified forever if they are truly their native languages? I wouldn't. A few pages ago, I also addressed the problem many other native speakers have previously identified which relates to two unverified native languages declared in profiles. Bernhard [Edited at 2013-07-30 18:26 GMT]
Yes, it seems to me too that in the current scheme of things, the verified native language status is completely meaningless whether a person has declared one language or two. It is a self-declaration. And as Enrique has explained, this has absolutely no impact on job selection.
So the point of the site declaring the first reported native language as "verified" completely escapes my understanding. Especially when this "verified" status is lost the moment you declare a second language also as your native language.
That many members do this regardless of their clear lack of competency in the second language further reinforces my belief that the "verified" status of the first declared language has no practical value, otherwise they wouldn't risk losing that status in their quest for "acquiring" another native language. In fact, they gain a lot, because they can now access jobs in the second native language they have reported.
So there is something here that I don't fully understand, but which many others who have reported two native languages do. I am not of course referring to those here who genuinely have proficiency in two languages like many in this thread.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
Statele Unite
Local time: 19:25
din engleză în germană
+ ...
In Memoriam | Immigrant children: I can't tell, Michelle | Jul 31, 2013 |
Michele Fauble wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote:
The migrant kids learn their "German" on the street and in classrooms that are populated by 90% of non-native speakers. They stay among themselves.
Is the situation for immigrant children really that different in Germany from that of immigrant children in places such as France, Scandinavia or the US?
The problem in Germany is that immigrant children adhere to a different religion, which makes integration extremely complicated. Unfortunately, true integration is not desired by the immigrants themselves, due to cultural and religious differences. I definitely cannot speak for France or Scandinavia, because I have never lived there. Regarding the US: If our Mexican immigrants would ever have insisted on wrapping their women with scarves, history might have developed differently.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:55
Membru (2006)
din engleză în hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | The real advantage | Jul 31, 2013 |
Enrique Cavalitto wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Enrique Cavalitto wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
While anyone can declare two languages as native, the moment you do it, both your languages will get unverified. And I understand it is not easy at proz.com to get your second language verified.
ProZ.com job restrictions are based on declared native language.
You can declare one or two native languages.
ProZ.com plans to verify native languages in the future, but no programs or deadlines are in place yet.
In preparation for these plans, the native languages of members who declared only one NL appear 'verified' while in all other cases (non-members and/or double native languages) they look 'unverified', but this difference has no impact on job restrictions.
This applies both to jobs posted in the site and to directory searches.
Regards,
Enrique Just wanted to make the point that it was discussed in the forums last year that many had declared and still display two native languages in their profiles, of which one is often English but that many native and even non-native English speakers in the forum threads had the impression, based on viewing text and other information in these profiles, that it was highly unlikely that English was indeed one of the claimants' native languages. Although I have no problem with letting anyone claim two native languages when they first register at Proz.com, I would like to see this status limited to a certain period of time after which, since no verification process is in place, the user or member should have to choose between one of these declared languages and his/her profile page should then only display one native language. Otherwise, it clearly allows anyone to claim English or any other language as their second native language, for an unlimited period of time, when in fact it might not be. This seems unfair to translators who certainly have an advanced knowledge of their second, non-native language but decided, as they should, to stick to the truth and not report it as their second native language. I don't see any point in keeping two unverified native languages forever. I would like to see only verified native languages displayed in the long run. If certain exceptions for regions or individuals with multiple native languages seem warranted and declaring two native languages as verified native languages should be allowed, then I would suggest an appropriate application form as I have suggested a few pages ago. Could you consider adding this time limit for displaying two native languages in the near future or at least forward my ideas to those staff members who work on finding solutions with regard to verifying native languages? An alternative would be to let everyone display only one native language as long as it cannot be determined that he/she really has two native languages. Thank you. Bernhard I see no advantage to our members in adding the time limit you suggest above. Regards, Enrique
Enrique, the real advantage would be when the site clearly defines what it means by native language. Does it mean "proficiency that is equal to that of an educated native" or does it mean "upbringing in an area where the language is spoken and amidst native speakers"?
The latter does not take into account proficiency achieved in the language, whereas the first does. Therefore, in my opinion, that should be the definition followed. Other prestigious translator associations like ATA and IoL also follow similar definitions of native language.
The implications of following this definition would be, and we need to be clearly aware of this, any verification process now would also have to include those who are natives of their language in the traditional sense, that is having grown up in the area of their native language or to parents speaking that language. The reason is, proficiency in a language does not automatically result from being born into the language, but has to be assiduously acquired. Otherwise, every native speaker would be a proficient user of his or her language, which we all know is not true.
This means testing everyone before verifying the native language tag.
[Edited at 2013-07-31 02:42 GMT]
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Michele Fauble
Statele Unite
Local time: 19:25
Membru (2006)
din norvegiană în engleză
+ ...
See my post above. I "edited" it (total rewrite). Sorry
| | | | Nicole Schnell
Statele Unite
Local time: 19:25
din engleză în germană
+ ...
In Memoriam | @Michelle, your edited version | Jul 31, 2013 |
Michele Fauble wrote: People who grow up speaking a variety of German are native speakers of German. The immigrant children you mention are native speakers of Einwanderer Deutsch.
As long as we do not accept "Einwander-Deutsch" as a variety of German, everything will remain fine. This "Einwanderer-Deutsch" is not some interesting new language variety, it is in its terminology based on sexism, contempt of women, possessive masculinity concepts, gender hierarchies and the glorification of violence.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
Statele Unite
Local time: 22:25
din engleză în germană
+ ...
| the mental text of your native language | Jul 31, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
That many members do this regardless of their clear lack of competency in the second language further reinforces my belief that the "verified" status of the first declared language has no practical value, otherwise they wouldn't risk losing that status in their quest for "acquiring" another native language. In fact, they gain a lot, because they can now access jobs in the second native language they have reported.
So there is something here that I don't fully understand, but which many others who have reported two native languages do. I am not of course referring to those here who genuinely have proficiency in two languages like many in this thread.
As in many cases, the answer to "why" is: because they can.
One possible explanation: there is no procedure in place for verifying two native languages. And there is no reason to wish it unless not getting verified prevents you from declaring yourself a native speaker of two languages. It doesn't.
But anyone should report two native languages only when that's really the case.
Now I am sure we still disagree on what "native language" means.
I believe it's one important aspect of our being. No matter how well you learn a language, that certain extra feel for it only comes from having learned it early in life and having used it for quite a few years. As a translator who declares a language his native language(s), that requirement should be fulfilled, IMO. You can study and use a language as an adult until you are blue in the face, you're not going to make up for what your brain was able to process when you were a child.
Native language refers to something behind the actual words you say or write and it determines how you say and write something, it's a mental text or thinking process that cannot be acquired (completely - how about that?) as an adult although some people and companies never tire trying to convince us otherwise. At least that's how I experience my own native language.
Now, not all native speakers have the same amount of vocabulary or express themselves in the way you would after having gone through high school and university education, but all native speakers operate on that mental subtext as I would call it.
Now, an educated translator can add this subtext as a feather in their cap, but a non-native will never have that particular subtext available to him/her.
Is that subtext always important for a translator or client? Maybe not. But it is a valid additional aspect. different from any non-native's command of a language. At least that's what I think.
Granted, you can get quite close to something like that but believe me, it will take a long time, and you're still not going to match the native translator/thinker.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2013-07-31 04:23 GMT]
| | | | Nicole Schnell
Statele Unite
Local time: 19:25
din engleză în germană
+ ...
In Memoriam
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I do not hold that the "birthplace" defines native language. But it's likely that a person born, raised, and educated in Germany is indeed a native German speaker.
Maybe we should put some emphasis on "educated" and stop mixing up professional linguists with anyone else who happened to be born in the same country and who technically is a "native speaker", yet can not spell the word "corn flakes" properly.
I think your comments are valid to a certain point. Even Mrs. Merkel has conceded that attempts of "integration" have failed. Not a good development.
She did a lot of great stuff, though. Hats off!
But it might be a bit exaggerated to say that you can't be sure anymore if someone from Germany is a native German speaker. I believe it's still valid to say that if someone grew up and was educated in Germany, he/she is still most likely a native German speaker and speaks the language as it is spoken and written by the majority of people there.
Will you agree that in case of translators who claim German as their only native language, it can be reasonably assumed that it is indeed their native language?
Where exactly did I say "that I am not sure if someone..., etc."? Please do not invent phrases that I never said.
And when you say "true command of the target language" you mean a translator's command, right, not any native speaker's? That point is important to me because when someone chooses a native speaker of the target language as their translator, they do expect a very high degree of that command of a native language.
Yes, what else.
Wouldn't you agree that it is more likely that a professional translator whose native language is German will be expected to do a better job in many fields of expertise than a non-native speaker, translating into German?
I just don't see the non-plus-ultra German translator as being a non-native German translator. Maybe for certain projects?!
Not sure where this is going - I hope we are still talking about translators.
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:55
Membru (2006)
din engleză în hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Wow, this thread has set a blistering pace | Jul 31, 2013 |
It is sizzling with ideas and moving like a river approaching the sea in many channels.
The fast-paced exchange between Lilian and others on the nebulous, hard to define, hard to put a finger on nature of the concept of native language is scintillating.
I particularly enjoyed the rousing posts by the old (not in the sense of age) warrior Jose, on the silliness and abjectness in persisting with the native language criterion by the penny-pinching outsourcers desperately s... See more It is sizzling with ideas and moving like a river approaching the sea in many channels.
The fast-paced exchange between Lilian and others on the nebulous, hard to define, hard to put a finger on nature of the concept of native language is scintillating.
I particularly enjoyed the rousing posts by the old (not in the sense of age) warrior Jose, on the silliness and abjectness in persisting with the native language criterion by the penny-pinching outsourcers desperately seeking a mantra to bail them out of the possible legal consequences of bad translation.
In all this tumult, Enrique's cautious feelers about identifying those small practical things that can actually be implemented on the site have been completely snowed over.
Actually, it is these small things that can be implemented on this site, that should be worthy of our attention, though the academic and educational value of such a richly veined discussion on this topic is also not completely without gain.
But I will once again highlight the little tweaks to the site that seems possible and for which as Enrique indicates, there is a feeble will on the part of the site to do something.
Enrique has said significantly that the site plans to verify native language status but the site has set no time limit for this.
That brings us back to the issue of how this can be done given the indistinctness of what native language is.
Clearly, we will have to remove the fuzziness from the concept of native language, and the only way to do it is to give it a consensus, arbitrary definition.
We have precedents for this in what ATA, IoL and other professional translation associations have done with this term.
Most of them use the proficiency based definition, dumping the ethnic and geographical connotations of the term, which are in any case only tangentially relevant for producing effective translation.
Maybe we too can do that and define native language as:
a language in which a person has proficiency equal to that of educated natives of that language.
Once we agree on this definition, other things will automatically fall in place, and this pointless, but nevertheless brilliant academic discussion on the esoteric topics of language acquisition, retention, relation of language proficiency to ethnicity and geography, etc., can be laid to rest, and we can move to practical issues like redesigning the site based on this definition of native language.
[Edited at 2013-07-31 07:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | Bernhard Sulzer
Statele Unite
Local time: 22:25
din engleză în germană
+ ...
| clarification | Jul 31, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
But it might be a bit exaggerated to say that you can't be sure anymore if someone from Germany is a native German speaker. I believe it's still valid to say that if someone grew up and was educated in Germany, he/she is still most likely a native German speaker and speaks the language as it is spoken and written by the majority of people there.
Will you agree that in case of translators who claim German as their only native language, it can be reasonably assumed that it is indeed their native language? Where exactly did I say "that I am not sure if someone..., etc."? Please do not invent phrases that I never said.
Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. But your comments about the migrant children who, as you said, can make up 90% in some of Germany's classrooms, implied to me that the language could be disintegrating to a point where we couldn't be sure anymore that all children graduating after 8 or 9 years of mandatory schooling are indeed native German speakers.
My "But it might be a bit exaggerated to say that you can't ..." was meant as something someone could take away from what's happening in Germany, not as something you said, 'cause you didn't. Just to clarify.
Bernhard
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