hazmatgerman (X) Jun 29, 2009:

on the use of resources my thanks to K. Metzger for pointing out the inadequacy, both of present rule enforcement re 2.1 and of the "pro question" definition itself. And again, any street guy asked would probably not have come up with "umbrella term". Best.

Kim Metzger (asker) Jun 27, 2009:

Übergeordneter Begriff or Überbegriff wouldn't have been a problem. It was "zusammenfassender Begriff" that I had never come across before and which isn't found in dictionaries.

Harald Moelzer (medical-translator) Jun 27, 2009:

Sorry Kim... ...I certainly did not mean to offend you!!!
IMO it is absolutely not absurd when professional linguists ask a (by definition) non-Pro question – I mean, are we linguists without fail?
Regarding your specific question, it is fairly obvious from a German native point of view to associate the more common ‘Überbegriff’ (which can certainly be found in standard dictionaries) with ‘zusammenhängender Begriff’. And although linguists are supposed to know everything, it is simply not possible – and sometimes it is a fairly simple and obvious issue that makes our heads ache…
But it is the fact to realise that you don’t know sth. that makes the difference (rather than using a term that you think might be correct).
Finally, the saying “You live and learn” is even true for linguists, isn’t it??

Lirka Jun 26, 2009:

Definitely not non-pro! Noone seems to dare express opinions re. "generic term" or "synoptic term", so I guess it's not that simple after all :)

Susan Zimmer Jun 26, 2009:

Absolutely, Kim! I definitely agree with you that even what may seem to be a simple term at first glance can cause quite a few headaches. You are a major force on Kudoz and I would never assume that any of the few questions you ask are Non-Pro. That's absurd! But then again, this whole past week seems to have been majorly absurd....

Helen Shiner Jun 26, 2009:

I completely agree with Kim here - so now I am not sorry that I inadvertently hit the non-PRO button, because it is useful to have this made clear again. Well said, Kim!

Kim Metzger (asker) Jun 26, 2009:

Non-pro question? In linguistics, a hyponym is a word or phrase whose semantic range is included within that of another word, its hypernym. For example, scarlet, vermilion, carmine, and crimson are all hyponyms of red (their hypernym), which is, in turn, a hyponym of colour.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypernym

Hypernymy is the semantic relation in which one word is the hypernym of another. Hypernymy, the relation words stand in when their extensions stand in the relation of class to subclass, should not be confused with holonymy which is the relation words stand in when the things that they denote stand in the relation of whole to part. A similar warning applies to hyponymy and meronymy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypernym

Kim Metzger (asker) Jun 26, 2009:

Non-pro question? I don’t ask a lot of KudoZ questions but when I do, I try to make sure I comply with professional standards.

An umbrella term is a word that provides a superset or grouping of related concepts, also called a hypernym.
For example, cryptology is an umbrella term that encompasses cryptography and cryptanalysis, among other fields.
Similarly, an "umbrella organization" can be an organization which is a central and coordinating body representing a number of smaller, separate bodies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrella_term

Kim Metzger (asker) Jun 26, 2009:

Non-pro question? The term is used in a works agreement, so the less formal “umbrella term” is best in this case. If I had needed the more formal term used in linguistics, I would have used hypernym. Was this a non-pro question? I also agree that the current site definition of non-pro questions: “those that are asked by people who are not professional translators, and that can be answered by any bilingual person without the aid of a dictionary” is inadequate. In my book, words that are easily found in dictionaries are not suitable as pro-level KudoZ questions. I also firmly believe in the old rule for askers, which is not enforced but should be: 2.1 - Use KudoZ to ask for a translation only after you have consulted the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > ProZ.com Term Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines and any other commonly available resources that might be helpful. If you find translations elsewhere and still wish to post a KudoZ question, include the information you have found and explain what further information you seek.<br>I spent half an hour researching this term, checking my own dictionaries and online dictionaries and parallel texts, but came up empty. I don’t ask a lot

Kim Metzger (asker) Jun 26, 2009:

Which standard dictionary lists zusammenfassender Begriff? Leo and dict.cc certainly don't. I checked Collins and Muret-Sanders.

Harald Moelzer (medical-translator) Jun 26, 2009:

Pro vs. Non-Pro Since Proz.com is a market place for (professional) linguists, I think the definition of Non-Pro questions ("beginners", "I love you" bilingual guy or gal on the street ;-) etc.) is somewhat outdated.

It seems more appropriate IMO to label terms as Non-Pro, if they can be found on standard online dictionaries such as Leo or dict.cc...

Most probably this issue has been raised in several forums (hasn't it?) and I apologise to post this small note here, but it seems to match the context (doesn't it) ;-)

hazmatgerman (X) Jun 26, 2009:

Just for the argument: that proverbial street guy might use "catch-all (term)" rather than umbrella, or so I reckon. Depends on where one asks, of course. Best.

Helen Shiner Jun 25, 2009:

Thanks, Kim for sorting that out. Clumsy me.

Kim Metzger (asker) Jun 25, 2009:

Would any bilingual guy or gal on the street be able to translate "zusammenfassender Begriff"?

Helen Shiner Jun 25, 2009:

Sorry I have voted this non-PRO in error.