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Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

homosexuelle Veranlagung

English translation:

homosexual (orientation)

Added to glossary by Karin Walker (X)
Apr 11, 2006 10:14
18 yrs ago
German term

homosexuell veranlagte Männer und Frauen / wegen ihrer Veranlagung

German to English Social Sciences Religion
Sorry for not entering a phrase above. This is a bit tricky.
I am translating a statement by a Catholic institution on a bill that came out in 2000 on same-sex partnerships. I am having problems with the sentence 'Nach kirchlicher Lehre verbietet es sich, homosexuell veranlagte Männer und Frauen in irgendeiner Weise ungerecht zurückzusetzen und ihnen wegen ihrer Veranlagung mit Missachtung zu begegnen'.

My issue is with 'veranlagt' and 'Veranlagung'. My current solution is to translate the first instance as 'men and women of homosexual persuasion' and the second as 'disposition'. I know the authors are taking a very conservative stance here and that it should be reflected also in English, but I can't help feeling this is utterly un-PC and condescending language. Can someone help me out with this?

Thanks
Karin
Proposed translations (English)
3 +13 orientation
3 +1 leave it out
Change log

Apr 11, 2006 13:13: Marcus Malabad changed "Term asked" from "Ethical/style question" to "homosexuell veranlagte Männer und Frauen / wegen ihrer Veranlagung "

Discussion

Henry Schroeder Apr 12, 2006:
@ Karin: Homo-Ehe, just for your information, is also not derogatory or condescending according to the Duden. Duden includes "abw." (abwertend) when something is negative and it doesn't here. I think your letter is merely official speech.
Marcus Malabad Apr 11, 2006:
My comment here should be the last entry in the Ask the Asker box. Folks, if you want to propose an answer, please do so below. If you want to comment on somebody's answer, please do so below. This box is only for clarifying points with the asker. Thanks
MMUlr Apr 11, 2006:
With swissgirl and Brigitte, Veranlagung means "genetically determined", so it underlines the "seriousness" of homosexuality (in contrast to Karin's comment) and is far more than just an orientation.
Nicole Wulf Apr 11, 2006:
I agree with Henry, it's common German, nothing condescending in it. The author isn't talking about "gay imagination" at all. "Veranlagung" means that something is in your genes!
Henry Schroeder Apr 11, 2006:
@Craig Muelen and Karin Gartshore: this is a common German formulation. Nothing Catholic, no agenda, nothing behind it. Just official speech, so to say. See answer below, look in newspapers, etc.
Karin Walker (X) (asker) Apr 11, 2006:
Craig That is exactly my point. To me the German sounds like they authors are trying to insinuate that homosexuality is a figment of the gay imagination, that it's just a leaning and nothing more serious than that. 'orientation' may be a solution here. 'gay', to me, is not an option here. Later on the text also mentions the term 'Homo-Ehe', which I think is very condescending - may use 'gay marriage' for that, but if they say 'homosexuell' I would have to go with 'homosexual'.
Francis Lee (X) Apr 11, 2006:
@ Henry and Brigitte: why not just write "gay" and completely ignore the subtleties involved here?
Craig Meulen Apr 11, 2006:
... or disagree (Henry). I think it is very significant here that the author didn't write "homosexual" - his opinion could be that "true homosexuals don't exist" - they are just normal people who've gone astray / need help to recognise their true nature.
BrigitteHilgner Apr 11, 2006:
Henry, why don't you post your comment as a proper answer so that we can agree with you? :-)
BrigitteHilgner Apr 11, 2006:
I agree with Henry - "homosexual" on its own seems most suitable. This is the year 2006 - even for the Roman Catholic Church. No point in using Victorian expressions.
Henry Schroeder Apr 11, 2006:
If you want to be really un-PC, use the former term "invert", as Proust so loved to do and Montcrieff so nicely retained. :-) I would leave "veranlagt" out altogether - typical case of German pedantry. They say homosexuell veranlagt, we say homosexual.

Proposed translations

+13
5 mins
German term (edited): Ethical/style question
Selected

orientation

"sexual orientation" is the standard phrase in this sort of context. I know what you mean about the German, but I don't think it's really that nasty.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 mins (2006-04-11 10:21:50 GMT)
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After all, "orientation" might likewise sound strange/condescending or misleading/inaccurate to some, but it is now an established term.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 mins (2006-04-11 10:26:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You could use "tendencies" or "inclination" - but that certainly would be condescending ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-04-11 11:53:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Google results:

homosexuell veranlagt - 749
homosexually oriented - 28,800

Even allowing for the linguistic bias of the Internet, it could hardly be claimed that the above English phrase is less common than the German. Equally, the redundancy argument could be applied to both.
Peer comment(s):
agree Oliver Annacker
3 mins
agree itla : Good suggestion
3 mins
neutral Henry Schroeder : Orientation means u.a. "change of position...in response to external influence" (Merriam Webster); Veranlagung laut dem Duden ist: "in der Natur eines Menschen liegende, angeborene Geartetheit"
9 mins
nor would you or I say "veranlagt", but that doesn't mean that many others don't / That's a bit cheeky of you, Henry; the preceding MW def. is "general or lasting direction of thought, inclination, or interest"
agree Craig Meulen : "men and women with a homosexual orientation" ... "because of their orientation"
25 mins
agree Ian M-H (X) : Plenty of Google hits for "homosexual orientation" on Catholic and other Christian sites, with "disposition" and "predisposition" also both frequent (and both possible for "Veranlagung").
33 mins
agree IanW (X) : I'd go with "sexual orientation" - sounds pretty neutral to my ears
47 mins
agree Hilary Davies Shelby : this is what is used in discrimination clauses, e.g.prohibiting "discrimination on the basis of race, gender, ethnicity, caste and untouchability, age, sexual orientation, gender identity, disabilities, religion, culture, social status, nationality...etc"
48 mins
... taste in shoes, culinary preferences, footballing loyalties etc.
agree rainerc (X) : With Ian Winick
50 mins
agree Nicole Wulf : However, I prefer "predisposition" as proposed by Ian Harknett
1 hr
agree CMJ_Trans (X) : well you could say "sexual bent" but that too is open to misinterpretation ! What isn't, these days?
1 hr
agree MMUlr : --> predisposition
1 hr
agree Rebecca Garber : with Ian Harknett on the various possibilities for "Veranlagung"
2 hrs
agree Ellen Zittinger
9 hrs
agree Michael Bailey
5 days
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks to all for their very helpful comments. It just goes to show that there are many different attitudes to this one!"
+1
53 mins
German term (edited): Ethical/style question

leave it out

I was taking a nap. Sorry.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 56 mins (2006-04-11 11:10:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"homosexuell veranlagt" is a completely normal way of speaking about homosexuals in Germany; I might even venture to say that in official speech (newspapers, radio) it is more common and certainly more polite and PC, than just saying homosexual. There is certainly no special meaning (i.e. negative) behind the formulation in any case.

I don't think we make this distinction in English.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 58 mins (2006-04-11 11:12:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Now you all can hammer away :-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-04-11 11:19:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

See here the phrase is used in a law:

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:zfmPdgb41IMJ:lsvd.de/bun...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2006-04-12 08:22:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

There is an interesting question on a perhaps more philosophical level here: Do Germans tend to see sexuality as determined, whereas Anglo-Americans view it as a choice. This is the best argument IMO in favor of Francis's suggestion. As he rightly notes "sexual orientation" is a completely normal phrase, just as "homosexuell veranlagt" or "homosexuelle Veranlagung" is completely normal in German. Yet whereas the German "Veranlagung" clearly describes a state determined by nature (Duden), the English more wishy-washy orientation describes a state less natural than contemplated or influenced by external forces. I believe in part that this is in part a reflection of our respective cultures, where the idea of self-determination is far more prominent certainly in America than in Germany.

Veranlagung:
3. in der Natur eines Menschen liegende, angeborene Geartetheit, Anlage (6), Eigenart (a), aus der sich bestimmte besondere Neigungen, Fähigkeiten od. Anfälligkeiten ergeben: ihre praktische, künstlerische, musikalische, homosexuelle V.; eine V. zur Fettsucht; sie hat eine V. zur Politikerin.

Orientation:
Main Entry: ori·en·ta·tion
Pronunciation: "Or-E-&n-'tA-sh&n, "or-, -"en-
Function: noun
1 a : the act or process of orienting or of being oriented b : the state of being oriented; broadly : ARRANGEMENT, ALIGNMENT
2 : a usually general or lasting direction of thought, inclination, or interest
3 : change of position by organs, organelles, or organisms in response to external stimulus

An excellent question Karin. It's unfortunate that there aren't more of these.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2006-04-12 08:24:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Please exuse the typos in the recent entry
Peer comment(s):
agree BrigitteHilgner : I still think that this is the best way to get the meaning of the German expression across.
48 mins
I think you're the first person to ever agree with my "leave it outs" :-)
neutral Ian M-H (X) : You might be able to get away with leaving out "veranlagte", although I wouldn't, but that still leaves "wegen ihrer Veranlagung" a few words further on. // I wouldn't say it either, but that's not the point here. People do.
1 hr
homosexuality as noun would be possible for Veranlagung. The problem with "orientation" u.a. is that it has a different meaning than Veranlagung (see "neutral" above). Disposition is at least possible according to the dictionary (merriam webster)
neutral Francis Lee (X) : Have to take issue with your comment to Ian there // I'd be the last to begrudge you a little amusement, Henry ;-) // Re. your suggestion: you could leave it out, but I think you'd lose something
1 hr
Fair enough. My apologies. I erased it. Just wanted to talk about Harold Bloom, misprison and amuse myself inbetween a boring translation project. Didn't mean any offenc(s)e. Take care!
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