| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Let's start a revolution, serfs! Initiator des Themas: blahdibla (X)
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| You are right | Jun 13, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
...everything would be okay with capitalism if workers, consumers etc. voted with their legs or wallets respectively.
I am convinced of this. There are enough regulations, such as International standards and translators associations. In Germany, as far as I know it, we do have about 40.000 translators and only about 7000 are organized in "various" translators associations.
The last thing we need is another Union that nobody joins. Look for example at IAPTI, nice idea, no influence - useless.
Do you know a better system - let us know. You are old enough to know about a different system in Poland. As I understood it, people did vote - not only with their feet to join capitalism - or did they call it freedom.
In my opinion there are some moral obligations, if you are successful, offering well paid intern position to students, offering training for other translators (even if this is criticized in another thread here on ProZ), organizing translators events (such as CPD events or conferences), setting time away to work in a translators association, paying adequate rates etc.
| | | | Triston Goodwin 
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 16:18
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Well, the op deleted his/her account... | Jun 13, 2013 |
I hated the carpenter's union that used to demand fees from me, even though I wasn't a member.
I volunteered for a charity in South America for a couple of years (I helped build things and develop safer water/well treatment processes), which is where I picked up my Spanish (my wife is the native Spanish speaker in case you noticed my working pairs) and started interpreting. Then I spent two years working as an interpreter in-house, which was a nightmare. I freelanced for a little o... See more I hated the carpenter's union that used to demand fees from me, even though I wasn't a member.
I volunteered for a charity in South America for a couple of years (I helped build things and develop safer water/well treatment processes), which is where I picked up my Spanish (my wife is the native Spanish speaker in case you noticed my working pairs) and started interpreting. Then I spent two years working as an interpreter in-house, which was a nightmare. I freelanced for a little over two years and my wife and I just opened our own translation and design agency last week.
If you don't like the way things are, change them. I found out that one of the agencies I worked with charges twice what they paid me, so I found my own direct clients and charge 90% of their price (¡¡tomá!!). I want to be a positive force for change and the best way I know to change something is changing myself first.
[My wife said that I should make sure that everyone knows that everything after this point is a joke.]
So, if you want to change the translation industry, send all your major clients to me and I'll take care of it.
Oh, send me your cv's, I have a 3,000 word test translation and 20 page contract and NDA for you to sign. Payments after 120 days, at the end of the month, after the client signs off on the project. But the work's really easy, you just have to edit our "proprietary machine translations". We'd also like a blood sample, you know, just in case I ever need a new kidney or something.. ^_^
[Edited at 2013-06-13 06:21 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 01:18
Englisch > Hebräisch
+ ...
| No one seem to care to listen anymore | Jun 13, 2013 |
In my opinion there are some moral obligations, if you are successful, offering well paid intern position to students, offering training for other translators (even if this is criticized in another thread here on ProZ), organizing translators events (such as CPD events or conferences), setting time away to work in a translators association, paying adequate rates etc.
I completely agree with you. I think this discussion and others in these and other forums fall under this category as well. From my experience the problem is not the lack of willingness to share experience, knowledge, and give advice; much like the different associations and lack of participants, the problem is more that no one seems to care to listen. I'm generalizing, of course there are people who listen, but so many don't - they think they know better and/or try to reinvent the wheel. When it blows up in their face, they come here complaining about the state of affairs while still ignoring the voice of reason, only now instead of trying to reinvent the business world they try to promote the idea of some kind of umbrella organization that will protect them from themselves.
About the quoted part in bold. People just love to complain. Translators are great at that. They are the masters of digital criticism and cynicism, but in the real world when it is them versus a "client", they crumble into pieces at first sight of negotiation, bargain against themselves, act unprofessionally, and then come back online to complain about the state of affairs...and the cycle repeats.
Well, the op deleted his/her account...
Too bad, but not really surprising (not the first time this has happened). This discussion still has very valuable information in case someone interested stumbles upon it at some point, but there might be a lesson for us, the participants, here too. Maybe we should consider more carefully before investing time and effort in replying to discussions opened by anonymous people with an empty profile who seem to have registered the same day.
| | | | | There is also a selfish component | Jun 13, 2013 |
Shai Nave wrote:
.... much like the different associations and lack of participants, the problem is more that no one seems to care to listen. I'm generalizing, of course there are people who listen, but so many don't - they think they know better and/or try to reinvent the wheel. When it blows up in their face, they come here complaining about the state of affairs while still ignoring the voice of reason, only now instead of trying to reinvent the business world they try to promote the idea of some kind of umbrella organization that will protect them from themselves.
One reason why we started or own CPD platform was also to identify the experts (not only in the group of presenters) in various fields, and these are the people we contact with job offers. It is a different type of network building, but you soon learn who is specialized in which area and who knows how to handle certain projects.
CPD is a wonderful tool to identify talented and qualified people.
I also love to be able to identify the people who always complain here. Certain soft skills are important for us when selecting freelancers and "constant wailing" is one of the NO-NO skills.
[Edited at 2013-06-13 08:57 GMT]
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Diana Coada (X)
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 23:18
Portugiesisch > Englisch
+ ...
I just want to point out a few things, Siegfried:
1. The Red Ps are no fraudsters. When ProZ stops claiming the P is awarded in accordance with the EN15038 standard, the Ps will stop as well. Colleagues apply for it to get an increased chance of appearing on the directory's first page. Surely you know that.
3. IAPTI is not useless. It was created 4 years ago, it's still growing. The ITI and the IOL are useless. That is why the profession in the UK is in the situation i... See more I just want to point out a few things, Siegfried:
1. The Red Ps are no fraudsters. When ProZ stops claiming the P is awarded in accordance with the EN15038 standard, the Ps will stop as well. Colleagues apply for it to get an increased chance of appearing on the directory's first page. Surely you know that.
3. IAPTI is not useless. It was created 4 years ago, it's still growing. The ITI and the IOL are useless. That is why the profession in the UK is in the situation it is at the moment. The government did not know who the IOL was when they gave the interpreting contract to ALS. Don't ask me where I heard that. In contrast, we all know the US government is very aware of the ATA. THEY ARE WORKING FOR THEIR MEMBERS.
[Edited at 2013-06-13 09:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 23:18
Mitglied (2008)
Italienisch > Englisch
xxxblahdibla wrote:
I'm sick of it.... etc.
Oh dear; I don't know why it is, but some translators seem to have the idea that the world considers our work to be of very little importance and that translators are an underclass.
Not so !
| | | | apk12
Deutschland
Local time: 00:18
Englisch > Deutsch
+ ...
| Show me the way to the next revolution... | Jun 13, 2013 |
So, blahdibla, if you need a person at the front of the demonstration holding the "Not for peanuts!" poster, here I am, right at the frontline and waiting for the start.
Btw...
Tom in London wrote:
I don't know why it is, but some translators seem to have the idea that ... translators are an underclass.
Actually, even if we were... an angency PM behaving in an unacceptable way towards the room cleaner would quickly have to empty their own trash on their own. I personally couldn't imagine to insult one of the BSR workers. First: they have a working union and when they strike, it stinks in the streets. Second: They earn much more than some of the rock bottom service offering "translators" earn...
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule |
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Sian Cooper
Frankreich
Local time: 00:18
Französisch > Englisch
+ ...
In stillem Gedenken | Not that easy and not that true (various...) | Jun 13, 2013 |
Well, there's a lot in this thread, so I won't be trying to quote everyone and comment on everything, but...
The red P's - another little revolution - if we want them to be worth something, it's up to us: translators who apply have to provide a test translation which is reviewed by other previously red-P certified translators. So: join, do the reviews and don't let in poor quality people.
I think they are worth something, personally. I have one, not because ProZ claims ... See more Well, there's a lot in this thread, so I won't be trying to quote everyone and comment on everything, but...
The red P's - another little revolution - if we want them to be worth something, it's up to us: translators who apply have to provide a test translation which is reviewed by other previously red-P certified translators. So: join, do the reviews and don't let in poor quality people.
I think they are worth something, personally. I have one, not because ProZ claims conformity to some label (I didn't know it did), but because I have no certification and it was a way of obtaining some visible skill-set validation. My job offers from reputable agencies have noticeably increased since I got my red P. Well, OK, that is a circular reference, I deem them reputable as per their ProZ BB mark. But again, that is voted by translators....
Which joins the 'ProZ jobs are all worthless and low end' subject. Again, not 'all', although no doubt 'many' or even 'most'. I have recently had one accepted (and resulting in work) at the price that translators here reckon should be the going rate. So, I think they are worth looking at, and I always use the BB as my initial check. Sure, a good BB rating does not mean they pay good prices - but BB comments and levels are a very good initial weeding exercise, in my opinion. I always quote a fair rate (never a rock-bottom one, and my rock-bottom is not the industry's rock-bottom), and sometimes agencies do come back to me to offer me less (I'm getting better at negotiating them up, promise!).
Which brings us to the initial revolution subject. Somewhere in this thread someone says it would only take about 6 months for the agencies and clients to come begging to us to work at the rates we want, if we all went on strike. Roughly that.
Well, personally, I can't afford not to work for 6 months, sorry. Even a low rate is better than no rate... competition, supply and demand - quality requirements of the market (speed and price over quality) - I have to accept it is a business, there is a low-end market, a high-end market, and lots in the middle. As a newb, I'm grateful if I can get into the middle.
That does not mean that I would accept anyone treating me rudely or in a disdainful fashion, but as yet I have not encountered that. I trust I never shall. But if I DID, I would tell everyone here about it and give them a rubbish BB rating. It's a way to have a voice, and isn't that one of the things we are trying for? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Strict reviews | Jun 13, 2013 |
Sian Cooper wrote:
The red P's - another little revolution - if we want them to be worth something, it's up to us: translators who apply have to provide a test translation which is reviewed by other previously red-P certified translators. So: join, do the reviews and don't let in poor quality people.
Exactly. When I have to review a sample for a Certified PRO application, I am as strict I am with any work I deliver to my customers. I sincerely hope everyone does the same. If we allow poor work to sip in, the Certified PRO will never have true value.
| | | | Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 01:18
Englisch > Hebräisch
+ ...
| Two comments | Jun 13, 2013 |
I deem them reputable as per their ProZ BB mark. But again, that is voted by translators....
I would recommend taking the BB records with a grain of salt. It is far from a prefect system and quite easily abused by both outsources and translators. I would advise to use at least two resources (the BB could be one of them) for cross referencing a potential outsourcer.
Even a low rate is better than no rate...
This is the instinct of many, but it is a very misleading one. Working for low fees, unreasonable terms and other kinds of abusive practices just because seemingly something is better than nothing is a slippery slope. It might have some short term benefit (i.e. pay the next couple of bills) but it leads to a long term damage. It is like sewing the branch one sits on just because one needs some wood to keep oneself warm.
It is a vicious cycle, all those low-tier time wasters are not stepping stones, they are anchors on one's career. Getting sucked into their world is like running in quick sand. Sadly, I've witnessed this happening, and it costs people their health over time.
Therefore, my advice for those who can't seem to find "quality" work and justify working for ridiculous fees and condition by the need to pay the bills is to find a job, any job, even unskilled minimum wage one. It has guaranteed pay for keeping up with the bills, social benefits, one is actually earning pretty much the same (or more) than as an independent translator, and at the end of the day no need to worry too much about anything - without all the administrative stress and hassle that involved with running a business.
| | | | | Can we copy and repost this every time this question comes up? | Jun 13, 2013 |
John Fossey wrote: What we need is to create a global trade union style thing. To be a member you'd have to meet certain standards in your work and would then be applying our minimum rates. Trade unions are, first of all, for trades. Translating is a profession, not a trade. Translators work with their heads, not their hands (well, except for typing). Besides, trade unions represent employee groups to employer groups. In the translation profession there are no employee groups (freelancers are businesspeople, not employees) and there are no employer groups (anyone can be an agency, and they purchase the services of freelance translators, they don't employ them).
PS I am not anti-union by any stretch, either - just think this is a great answer. One among many in this thread! All newbies should be encouraged to read it.
[Edited at 2013-06-13 22:13 GMT]
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Shai Nave wrote: I deem them reputable as per their ProZ BB mark. But again, that is voted by translators.... I would recommend taking the BB records with a grain of salt. It is far from a prefect system and quite easily abused by both outsources and translators. I would advise to use at least two resources (the BB could be one of them) for cross referencing a potential outsourcer.
NDAs may be preventing some translators from posting. Also, when you get a WWA, it's a lot of pressure to give the agency a 5 rather than a 4, which it really should be, or even 3 for being average. Thus, the spectacular 5 may in some cases be the default grade that takes some effort to fall from. This said, I'd love to work for someone who has a full BB of fully or even mostly deserved 5's.
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Sian Cooper wrote:
The red P's - another little revolution - if we want them to be worth something, it's up to us: translators who apply have to provide a test translation which is reviewed by other previously red-P certified translators. So: join, do the reviews and don't let in poor quality people. Exactly. When I have to review a sample for a Certified PRO application, I am as strict I am with any work I deliver to my customers. I sincerely hope everyone does the same. If we allow poor work to sip in, the Certified PRO will never have true value.
Out of curiosity, don't you require a higher standard there than in usual proofing and reviewing for business needs? After all, it's supposed to be some sort of certification, an official exam of sorts.
[Edited at 2013-06-13 22:32 GMT]
| | | | | I only have one standard | Jun 14, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote: Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Exactly. When I have to review a sample for a Certified PRO application, I am as strict I am with any work I deliver to my customers. I sincerely hope everyone does the same. If we allow poor work to sip in, the Certified PRO will never have true value. Out of curiosity, don't you require a higher standard there than in usual proofing and reviewing for business needs? After all, it's supposed to be some sort of certification, an official exam of sorts.
I have to say that, no matter how hard I try, I am uncapable of having or allowing different levels of quality. Either I feel it is 100% perfect, or I immediately dislike the work and it won't go to the customer. This is the case when I translate myself and when I review the work of my team here in the office.
| | | | Edward Potter
Spanien
Local time: 00:18
Mitglied (2003)
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...
Good job to everyone posting here. We have a good discussion going.
My comments on a forced minimum rate: at first glance this may seem like an excellent idea. However, how would the human beings involved react to a third party forcing rates on the two contracting parties?
What has happened in the past was a decline in the amount of work available. It also resulted in existing companies shutting down and fewer companies starting up.
Hampering the abili... See more Good job to everyone posting here. We have a good discussion going.
My comments on a forced minimum rate: at first glance this may seem like an excellent idea. However, how would the human beings involved react to a third party forcing rates on the two contracting parties?
What has happened in the past was a decline in the amount of work available. It also resulted in existing companies shutting down and fewer companies starting up.
Hampering the ability to negotiate a price results in fewer deals being struck. In the end the ones at the bottom, the ones wishing to accept lower rates, perhaps to gain experience and a good reputation, are left out.
Imposing minimum rates, in the past, has led to entrenched veteran workers and exclusion of the newbies. ▲ Collapse
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