| Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4] > | Negotiating rates or what's going on in the world today? Thread poster: Paula Hernández
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I just had a very interesting exchange of e-mails with an agency. The story goes as follows:
1st I show interest in a project they are offering in the pair EN-CAT. I send the my cover letter, where I introduce myself, and my CV and rates: 0.065EUR per word (not too high, not too low).
So it starts:
- Dear Paula, thank you for contacting us. Is this your lowest rate you could offer taking into account that we will provide you with another 9000 words after New Year?... See more I just had a very interesting exchange of e-mails with an agency. The story goes as follows:
1st I show interest in a project they are offering in the pair EN-CAT. I send the my cover letter, where I introduce myself, and my CV and rates: 0.065EUR per word (not too high, not too low).
So it starts:
- Dear Paula, thank you for contacting us. Is this your lowest rate you could offer taking into account that we will provide you with another 9000 words after New Year? Mr X
- Dear Mr X, What would the total amount of words be for the whole project? I do apply large volume discounts, but I would need to know the total volume. Thanks, Paula
- Paula, total word count will be 11 000 words. Mr X
- Dear Mr X, Then the rate would be 0.055 EUR per word. Best regards, Paula
- Paula, for us it is a little bit too high rate. We will place you in our database in case we have any projects in Catalan, where we could pay 0.055EUR. What is your working schedule throughout the holidays? Mr X
- Dear Mr X, Thank you for your reply. I am going to be completely available throughout all the holidays.
Best regards, Paula
(At this point, I undestood that I was not going to do this job and I felt a bit proud of not having surrendered to low rates. However....)
- Paula, could you do 0.04EUR? (WHAT!?)
(What I did next was check their site. They happened to show the rates for their clients: 0.095 EUR per word for a general text)
- Dear Mr X, What kind of text is it? I can not accept 0.04 EUR per word for a specialized subject because it goes against my working policy that you can check at http://nopeanuts.wordpress.com/endorsements/
I find that lately I am not even able to establish my working price, as I used to do a few years ago. And this means that agencies tend to offer me a very low price in exchange, of course, for a fast turnaround and high quality. Therefore, I have to say enough because I am the one doing the main work here and I am getting ripped off of most of the profit. Right now, for me to take a rate as low as 0.04 EUR, the volume of translation would have to be over 100.000 words.
Please, do not feel aggravated by this e-mail. I just feel that some translators have to say this every once in a while. Best regards, Paula
(At this point, a colleague opened a chat window and started telling me how he was desperate to get some jobs. He has not yet finished his degree but has collaborated with me in some projects and is a good dude. I tell him about this offer and tells me that he is willing to do it!)
Next e-mail:
- You could take a look at the text, its quite general.
- Dear Mr X, I have forwarded your address to a colleague of mine who also translates Catalan. His name is XX. He does not have my experience but will most certainly accept your rate.
For a general text I have to take a rate a 0.05 EUR per word. Best regards, Paula
Last e-mail:
-Thank you for this.
My friend told me that they answered fast and offered him 0.03 EUR per word!
It turns out that:
- Translators are not entitled to set their rates.
- Agencies want to get a 60% (or more) profit for contacting with translators and letting them do the big work.
What is going on with the world?
[Editado a las 2010-12-23 15:11 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Sorry to say this, but you are only helping them | Dec 23, 2010 |
Look at it this way:
You not only caved in on rates, but also helped them find someone who works for half your rate. With this sort of negotiation practices, you are effectively validating their outsourcing strategy, instead of fighting it.
| | | | Paula Hernández
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:59
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | Well, I wonder | Dec 23, 2010 |
They just got somebody with no degree and little experience. Maybe something will go wrong, or maybe not.
I think I made my point. I could have told them to F*** off, but I didn't. Yeah, in the end, they found someone to do the translation, which they would have, anyway, lets not kid ourselves. There is always someone to do it for a lower rate.
| | | | | That's life and that's business | Dec 23, 2010 |
Paula Hernández Sambeat wrote:
They just got somebody with no degree and little experience. Maybe something will go wrong, or maybe not.
I think I made my point. I could have told them to F*** off, but I didn't. Yeah, in the end, they found someone to do the translation, which they would have, anyway, lets not kid ourselves. There is always someone to do it for a lower rate.
Hi Paula,
If someone is a good translator and still allows to be abused and exploited then of course some agencies will go on with this strategy. A translator needs to be a good business person also.
If somebody is not a good business person, it's better if he/she finds a full-time job. If you are a freelancer, you need to know what you are worth.
Try to work for agencies, which appreciate quality over rates. A good agency would accept a project from a client based on its translator rates and not the opposite: we often read that the agency has a tight budget for this project .. Try to avoid agencies with such tricky clichés.. My suggestion is don't care about agencies which are chasing low rate translators. Every business finds its own match... Low rates, low quality .. Higher/high rates, high quality ..
Happy Holidays!
Katalin
[Edited at 2010-12-23 13:39 GMT]
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David Wright 
Austria
Local time: 14:59
German to English
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| Discounts for quantity | Dec 23, 2010 |
I don't get it. Translators are offering discounts for large quantities. The work doesn't get any faster just cos it's a large quantity. A vendor that sells a manufactured product, or an agent that sells other people's translations, can give discounts and the greater volume makes up for the smaller margin. You as a translator sholdn't be - you can't "make up" the reduced income elsewhere except by working longer hours. Moreover, large volumes are actually disadvantageous - they make you reliant ... See more I don't get it. Translators are offering discounts for large quantities. The work doesn't get any faster just cos it's a large quantity. A vendor that sells a manufactured product, or an agent that sells other people's translations, can give discounts and the greater volume makes up for the smaller margin. You as a translator sholdn't be - you can't "make up" the reduced income elsewhere except by working longer hours. Moreover, large volumes are actually disadvantageous - they make you reliant on one client, and the tie you up when more profitable jobs are offered later. So - for me - NO DISCOUNTS! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paula Hernández
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:59
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Lets get real | Dec 23, 2010 |
I am tired of reading about translators saying they don't offer large volume discounts or don't accept rates below whatever rate.
A few days ago I was talking to a colleague and she told me about this forum for subtitlers and about people saying that they would NEVER go below I-don't-know-what-rate and some of them saying that they thought earning 5000 euros a month was too little. My friend and me were laughing at this because it does not depict in any way the actual market, at lea... See more I am tired of reading about translators saying they don't offer large volume discounts or don't accept rates below whatever rate.
A few days ago I was talking to a colleague and she told me about this forum for subtitlers and about people saying that they would NEVER go below I-don't-know-what-rate and some of them saying that they thought earning 5000 euros a month was too little. My friend and me were laughing at this because it does not depict in any way the actual market, at least in Spain.
Agencies always ask for a large volume discount. It means putting more hours. True. But it also means that maybe I will have enough money for three months (since I do not get enough regular work).
The average rate in Spain for EN-ES or even EN-CAT is 0.04, sometimes 0.045. Ridiculous. Yes.
At the moment I am able to say no to these companies because I have money to go for a couple of months, but when the time comes and I have to pay the bills, I wonder if I will see those rates as low rates anymore.
It does not matter if I refuse a job based on low rates or discounts or whatever because as much as we all would like to be united and blahblah. Translation works on the Internet, we do not see each other faces and we do not know what a guy in Tanzania is doing with their translations. So there is no movement to standardize rates and I don't think there will be any time soon.
If I lived in China or India I would live as a queen with 0.04 EUR rates, unfortunately, I live in Europe and that rate is shit. But there are people that will take it without thinking twice.
@Mikhail: "Look at it this way:
You not only caved in on rates, but also helped them find someone who works for half your rate. With this sort of negotiation practices, you are effectively validating their outsourcing strategy, instead of fighting it. "
What you say is true. It is also true that someone else would have done the job. At least this way it will be a friend that I know needs the money.
The ideals are great, and I try to stick to the as much as I can. But needs are heavier than ideals. ▲ Collapse
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0.065 EUR/word is way to low for your good work.
Gudrun
| | | | | Economies of scale | Dec 23, 2010 |
David Wright wrote:
I don't get it. Translators are offering discounts for large quantities. The work doesn't get any faster just cos it's a large quantity. A vendor that sells a manufactured product, or an agent that sells other people's translations, can give discounts and the greater volume makes up for the smaller margin. You as a translator sholdn't be - you can't "make up" the reduced income elsewhere except by working longer hours. Moreover, large volumes are actually disadvantageous - they make you reliant on one client, and the tie you up when more profitable jobs are offered later. So - for me - NO DISCOUNTS!
To be sure, David, work *may* get faster on a larger project once you get into it. When I get a new large project, I start off slower than usual (or about the same), but then I speed up to 2-3 times the initial rate (of words/hour), once all the terminology is in my head and I don't need to look up things. If the project is large enough, this can translate (no pun intended) into sizable time savings.
Then, the decision to pass off these savings to the customer is your own.
Nonetheless, I don't always prefer huge projects even when I get paid my target rate, because it means saying no to many other clients. And juggling projects is one of my specialties but it's still quite a hassle.
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 14:59
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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| You missed a few factors | Dec 23, 2010 |
Mikhail Kropotov wrote:
To be sure, David, work *may* get faster on a larger project once you get into it. When I get a new large project, I start off slower than usual (or about the same), but then I speed up to 2-3 times the initial rate (of words/hour), once all the terminology is in my head and I don't need to look up things. If the project is large enough, this can translate (no pun intended) into sizable time savings.
This is true, as you dig deeper into the subject/content you are pacing up ( warming up) and it's going faster. However, you didn't include the tiredness factor, namely as you progress you are also getting more and more tired ( if we are talking about work at full capacity, day after day). This factor will interfere with speed as well. It's not only mental exhaustion, but also a physical one, as you are stuck to the screen for hours ( and for days).
Therefore, discounts on big volumes just don't make sense.
| | | | | Respectfully disagree | Dec 23, 2010 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
This is true, as you dig deeper into the subject/content you are pacing up ( warming up) and it's going faster. However, you didn't include the tiredness factor, namely as you progress you are also getting more and more tired ( if we are talking about work at full capacity, day after day). This factor will interfere with speed as well. It's not only mental exhaustion, but also a physical one, as you are stuck to the screen for hours ( and for days).
Sorry, that makes no sense to me. After I complete six 5,000-word projects in different fields, I am as tired, if not more, as if I did a 30,000 word project. And I'll have spent more time on those six projects, too.
Speeding up as you dig deep into a large project doesn't lead to exhaustion in any sense - at least for me.
I'm afraid we're getting off topic, and I'm sorry.
| | | | Steven Capsuto
United States
Local time: 08:59
Member (2004)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Paula Hernández Sambeat wrote:
I am tired of reading about translators saying they don't offer large volume discounts or don't accept rates below whatever rate.
I don't think volume discounts make sense in our profession. Being underpaid for 1000 words would be bad enough. A client who wants a volume discount is offering me the great honor of being underpaid for an even *longer* time, maybe months on end, which would require me to turn down work from other clients who pay full price. So... no, thanks!
A few days ago I was talking to a colleague and she told me about this forum for subtitlers and about people saying that they would NEVER go below I-don't-know-what-rate and some of them saying that they thought earning 5000 euros a month was too little. My friend and me were laughing at this because it does not depict in any way the actual market, at least in Spain.
In the age of the Internet, you can work for clients outside your own country.
Agencies always ask for a large volume discount.
People ask for lots of nonsensical things. That doesn't mean they have a right to them.
Volume discounts make sense in manufacturing, where the setup costs can be amortized over a longer production run. In service industries like ours, I don't understand the logic of volume discounts.
If anything, a long translation requires more time for quality control than a medium-sized translation, since you have to maintain terminological and stylistic consistency over a much longer document.
It means putting more hours. True.
That's what a client is buying from you: time. What they buy, they should pay for.
The average rate in Spain for EN-ES or even EN-CAT is 0.04, sometimes 0.045. Ridiculous. Yes.
If that's the average, that means there are a lot of clients paying significantly more than that. I suppose a savvy businessperson targets those better-paying clients and considers the lower offers as background noise to be ignored.
It does not matter if I refuse a job based on low rates or discounts or whatever because as much as we all would like to be united and blahblah.
Again, there's no reason to limit yourself to clients in a particular country, especially if you're a generalist translator. There are plenty of agencies and direct clients in Canada and the UK and the US that are probably worth exploring.
Regards and good luck!
[Edited at 2010-12-23 15:15 GMT]
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 14:59
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Sorry for the off-topic. | Dec 23, 2010 |
Mikhail Kropotov wrote: Lingua 5B wrote:
This is true, as you dig deeper into the subject/content you are pacing up ( warming up) and it's going faster. However, you didn't include the tiredness factor, namely as you progress you are also getting more and more tired ( if we are talking about work at full capacity, day after day). This factor will interfere with speed as well. It's not only mental exhaustion, but also a physical one, as you are stuck to the screen for hours ( and for days).
Sorry, that makes no sense to me. After I complete six 5,000-word projects in different fields, I am as tired, if not more, as if I did a 30,000 word project. And I'll have spent more time on those six projects, too. Speeding up as you dig deep into a large project doesn't lead to exhaustion in any sense - at least for me. I'm afraid we're getting off topic, and I'm sorry.
Just to add this: that depends on your deadline though and the work pace. If it was a very high work pace over a longer period of time, believe me you'd get exhausted. That's another factor to include, so I definitely wouldn't discuss this in a generic way.
[Edited at 2010-12-23 14:40 GMT]
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| Let's face it | Dec 23, 2010 |
Hi everyone,
I find each of you has a point in this thread. Paula, you could have avoided writing your colleague's name on this forum, now we all now about him, his difficulties and his low rates.
I have always been one of those fighting for the profession and for ideals, for high rates and top quality. This inspirational attitude has been by my side for over 13 years and I have always felt it's been a winning strategy.
The high rates I have charged have ... See more Hi everyone,
I find each of you has a point in this thread. Paula, you could have avoided writing your colleague's name on this forum, now we all now about him, his difficulties and his low rates.
I have always been one of those fighting for the profession and for ideals, for high rates and top quality. This inspirational attitude has been by my side for over 13 years and I have always felt it's been a winning strategy.
The high rates I have charged have not only paid for an impeccable service but they have also given me the chance to raise my competitiveness and attractiveness on the market because I have afforded a high tech office, updated CAT tools, professional association fees, travels to conferences etc.
BUT... we need to open our eyes because things are changing out there and in these changing times there are not many people willing to stick to ideals. The worldwide crisis has affected the translation industry as well and it may be true that large corporations are still making their margins after all and leave all pressures to translators forcing them to accept lower rates but still making their money.
However it is certainly true that there is an increasing number of translators out there willing to lower their rates to pay their mortgages and feed their families in this critical situation. This does not even have anything to do with quality, or very little compared to the past.
This reflects in an increasingly lower capacity of the idealistic ones to stand up for their rights! If we don't take the recent developments into account it may turn out for the worst. Being a "business person" as someone put it also necessarily implies keeping up with changes and staying competitive on the market. I am not saying lowering rates is the best idea, just that ideals and strong positions may no longer be sensible.
As somebody said you can stick to ideals as long as they still pay in reality but if they don't sooner or later you will have to face the situation and come to terms with whatever solution seems suitable.
For your information, I am still sticking to ideals but not too sure about the future.
Monica ▲ Collapse
| | | | Simone Linke
Germany
Local time: 14:59
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Discounts sometimes ok | Dec 23, 2010 |
I think volume discounts can indeed make sense, but you need to have access to suitable numbers to determine when you can give discounts.
Judging from Paula's description, it seems that's not the case here.
First of all, discounts only make sense for long-term clients (for those, you know their payment morale, the quality of their texts, etc.), never for new clients. A large-volume text from a new client may turn out to be crappy Chinese-English that takes forever to understan... See more I think volume discounts can indeed make sense, but you need to have access to suitable numbers to determine when you can give discounts.
Judging from Paula's description, it seems that's not the case here.
First of all, discounts only make sense for long-term clients (for those, you know their payment morale, the quality of their texts, etc.), never for new clients. A large-volume text from a new client may turn out to be crappy Chinese-English that takes forever to understand. In that case, you'd be screwed.
However, for your long-term clients, you can gather all necessary numbers. For example, I have an hourly rate that I want to earn. For each returning client, I keep track of how much time I spent with their texts, how much money I make, and thus, what my actual hourly rate for this particular client is.
Now, if the actual rate turns out to be significantly larger than my desired rate, that's great. Then I can lean back and enjoy it or apply a discount every now and then to make my client happy and to make him come back to me for more.
Because, if the client does come back to me regularly, I will not need to waste so much time looking for other jobs, I will waste less time with accounting, I will waste less time sitting in front of the computer because I know exactly what time of the day this particular client usually sends jobs.
So, a discount can indeed make sense (treat it like advertizing costs), but you have to make sure that this discount does not affect your desired hourly rate.
Thus @ Paula: maybe you can analyze your business a bit better and adjust your pricing policy. I know, I know - this doesn't help if you need money. But it might help you understand better why you sometimes need more money - maybe you've given discounts too often before? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Adam Łobatiuk
Poland
Local time: 14:59
Member (2009)
English to Polish
+ ...
| Also off-topic (kind of) | Dec 23, 2010 |
Whenever translators' rates are discussed on Proz forums, I can't help but think that the only reasonable way to participate is to claim that we should earn more. This forum is open to anyone, including outsourcers, and by claiming otherwise, we only provide them with ammunition.
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